Is education educating?

[Deleted]

Yeah, in fairness I know logically that they can't ALL suck and I probably just got a crappy sample or something. It just always drove me so nuts, especially when dealing with the few that were actually great and seeing how much of an impact they had on kids and then heading to the next classroom where the teacher was dozing in his seat with "Pages 135-138" written on the chalkboard. ><

Honestly they should be fired in those scenarios. You reach a point where you're just never going to get back to being a teacher, and at that point you're just doing a disservice to the children.

[Memory]

Dollar dollar bills y'all. Ever wonder why tablets aren't in all schools? They're cheaper than books to both parents and state book programs.

It's because each August the lovely reps for book companies come around to dispense their useless textbooks, which are only useful to some subjects in some capacities. If we can't even escape the book monopoly, education reform is a long way off still.

That's completely misguided.
Useless textbooks? Books and tablets are completely different tools. It's not just matter of the content: different media structures learning differently. I am not saying that books are better, but neither are tablets, until proven. They're different: the content isn't everything. And sure, nothing against trying it. But it's hardly just a matter of someone's market shares.
I know that certain political movements are big advocates of tablets in school, surrounding the proposal with catchy populistic suggestions such as opensource textbooks, as if tablets are some sort of God's given solution to the children of men... But that's just bullshit.

[Stonecloak]

Honestly they should be fired in those scenarios. You reach a point where you're just never going to get back to being a teacher, and at that point you're just doing a disservice to the children.

Well, then there's the money issue. Fatherhood has generally given me the best way to teach without any limitations. It's quite fun when done in a healthy way.

[Deleted]

That's completely misguided.
Useless textbooks? Books and tablets are completely different tools. It's not just matter of the content: different media structures learning differently. I am not saying that books are better, but neither are tublets, until proven. They're different, though: the content isn't everything. And sure, nothing against trying. But it's hardly just a matter of someone's market shares.
I know that certain political movements are big advocates of tablets in school, surrounding the proposal with catchy populistic suggestions such as opensource textbooks, as if tablets are some sort of God's given solution to the children of men... But that's just bullshit.

Physical textbooks are outdated, and frankly unnecessary.

There's literally nothing that a physical book can do that an eBook won't do better, and cheaper. It's the textbook market that lobbies for the continued use of the physical books.

If tablets and eBooks are cheaper, lighter to carry around, and have numerous other benefits, e.g. SEN applications, direct feedback to teacher hub etc., why bother with textbooks?

[Deleted]

Im curious Silas, do you treat your pupils like human beings (I suspect yes)? I ask because I remember even the most basic of human needs being denied to me on the whims of people who think they know better because they have authority, ie something as simple as going to the bathroom.

End of the year I sit down in a student desk and they get to act out my teaching style.

Essentially they get to make fun of me, and they also practice public speaking and dramatized roles. Muahaha! They're learning why having fun, down with the system!

Oh and I let them go to the bathroom all the time, one at a time of course. I've had bladder issues before and I'd hate to ever put someone at unrest for my own ego.

[Memory]

There's literally nothing that a physical book can do that an eBook won't do better

Well, I see many things that an ereader cannot do.

[Deleted]

That's interesting.

Working in a library, it's actually been the reverse. Publishers pushing the e-Books because they can charge just as much as place ridiculous "wear and tear simulation" checkout restrictions on them so we have to re-buy them after as few as 25 checkouts.

Not for school textbooks (see college textbook cost) because they charge crazy high prices. http://www.digitalbookworld.com/2013...st-to-realize/ Nice enough little blog post on one of the problems.

[Deleted]

Well, I see many things that an ereader cannot do.

Try giving one.

[ringpriest]

Physical textbooks are outdated, and frankly unnecessary.

There's literally nothing that a physical book can do that an eBook won't do better, and cheaper. It's the textbook market that lobbies for the continued use of the physical books.

If tablets and eBooks are cheaper, lighter to carry around, and have numerous other benefits, e.g. SEN applications, direct feedback to teacher hub etc., why bother with textbooks?

They're readable without charged batteries.

[Deleted]

They're readable without charged batteries.

School day averages 6 hours, average battery life for a modern tablet 8-10 hours. And battery packs are also a thing, besides that all you'd need is a charging port at desks/in each classroom and they can charge during lunch/recess/times they're not needed.

[Memory]

Try giving one.

I underline my books; I write different kinds of notes on them (different as in different styles matching the content of the note; it may include drawings and schemes); I keep two, three, five, six books open at once on my desk, while I do not own as many ereaders; I can keep one book open at several different pages, switching in between them (in a way that is not the same as with the use of digital bookmarks).

Furthermore, although you probably think that you can find everything on Google and Google Books, that's not true. There are hundreds of thousands of books and issues of journals that are not digitalized, with no current plan for being digitalized: the least we need is creating a generation that cannot access this material because they aren't used to study on an actual book.

Another thing is... Think it like this: watching a film at the theater isn't the same as watching it on Youtube; it is a different experience for a ton of reasons... Wouldn't you agree? You do not only have the same movie on two different media: for example, your attention may be structured differently. In fact Youtube is mostly and widely used for 5 mins clips, not for full lenght films. Wonder why.

Bottom line: books and ereaders are DIFFERENT. Going from books to ereaders isn't just matter of changing a tool: you're changing the way we structure knowledge. Also the gestures that I listed, they're not neutral gestures that can be replaced by a digital equivalent: also gestures structure knowledge.
And by no mean I am saying that we must not change it ever. Still, it is a big change which has to be acknowledged as such. And I am not accepting suggestions from people who don't even realize how big of a change it is.

[Garnier Fructis]

Try giving one.

One issue with ereaders is DRM.

[Deleted]

I underline my books; I write different kinds of notes on them (different as in different styles matching the content of the note: it may include drawings and schemes); I keep two, three, five, six books open at once on my desk, while I do not own as many ereaders; I can keep one book open at several different pages, switching in between them (in a way that is not the same as the use of digital bookmarks).

Furthermore, although you probably think that you can find everything on Google and Google Books, that's not true. There are hundreds of thousands of books and issues of journals that are not digitalized, with no current plan for being digitalized: the least we need is creating a generation that cannot access this material because they aren't used to study on an actual book.

Another thing is... Think it like this: watching a film at theater isn't the same as watching on youtube; it is a different experience for a ton of reasons... Wouldn't you agree? Now, you do not only have the same movie on two different medias: for example, your attention may have been structured differently. In fact Youtube is used for 5 mins clips, not for full lenght films. Wonder why.

Bottom line: books and ereaders are DIFFERENT. Going from books to ereaders isn't just matter of changing a tool: you're changing the way we structure knowledge. Also the gestures that I listed, they're not neutral gestures that can be replaced by a digital equivalent: also gestures structure knowledge.
And by no mean I am NOT saying that we must not change it. Still, it is a big change which has to be acknowledged as such. And I am not accepting suggestions from people who don't even realize how big of a change it is.

None of the functions you mentioned can' be done via existing software (underlining is quite an old feature)

And those old journals you mention, whilst they do exist in *some* libraries, most Universities also undertook scanning policies decades ago. We're also talking about schooling here, not necessarily university level education which requires considerably more contextual understanding.

And the whole experience part? I don't agree. I've the collected Dickens on paper, old yellowed gorgeous paper, and digitally. The nostalgia of books is nice, but not even remotely comparable to the theatre or cinema. Those are communal experiences you're discussing.

It's not changing the way we structure knowledge, not even remotely. I've no clue where you believe that books are central to knowledge structure, seeing as knowledge is formulated internally and it doesn't matter where it comes from, all of it is interpreted.

You're not accepting suggestions? Gotta love that stance there mate. Enjoy the nostalgia juice.

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One issue with ereaders is DRM.

Corporate style licenses for schools similar to Microsoft would work well I'd imagine.

[ringpriest]

School day averages 6 hours, average battery life for a modern tablet 8-10 hours. And battery packs are also a thing, besides that all you'd need is a charging port at desks/in each classroom and they can charge during lunch/recess/times they're not needed.

And how many charge cycles is that battery good for? And the physical book doesn't need battery packs or charging, or installations of charging stations around the school. And it doesn't rely on pre-teens or teens remembering to plug their e-reader in. (Or not plugging in their phone, phablet, or whatever, instead of their book.)

To be clear, I'm not opposed to e-books in general, or tablets for students. But it is a trade-off, and saying, "There's literally nothing that a physical book can do that an eBook won't do better, and cheaper" is both untrue and does a dis-service to anyone interested in making an honest comparison.

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Corporate style licenses for schools similar to Microsoft would work well I'd imagine.

Imagination is indeed the only place where corporate DRM works well.

[Mihalik]

I think the "teaching to think" role in education was in the past fulfilled to large extent by Humanities. History, Geography, Literature, Music, Philosophy. These parts were de-emphasized with the increasing focus on "job oriented" education. This combined with standardization killed the creative part of education.

A good few initial steps to return to more formative education would be the return of Humanities to schools and highschools. (This coming from someone who studied and works in hard sciences related field).

Other things could be better integration of fields like computer sciences and economics into mathematics etc.

[Memory]

None of the functions you mentioned can' be done via existing software (underlining is quite an old feature)

It is not the same. Even underlining: underlining isn't just a mark for further reference, it's more about the time that you spend underlining, the gesture.
Furthermore, you gotta explain me how to have six books open on my desk with 'current software'.

We're also talking about schooling here, not necessarily university level education which requires considerably more contextual understanding.

In fact I specified that it is about educating people (at school) who are able to study on books (which'll be needed later on).

And the whole experience part? I don't agree. I've the collected Dickens on paper, old yellowed gorgeous paper, and digitally. The nostalgia of books is nice, but not even remotely comparable to the theatre or cinema. Those are communal experiences you're discussing.

I may have said TV or even a video player, rather than theater: I'm not talking of the communal side of the experience.

It's not changing the way we structure knowledge, not even remotely. I've no clue where you believe that books are central to knowledge structure, seeing as knowledge is formulated internally and it doesn't matter where it comes from, all of it is interpreted.

You gotta be kidding me. The strategies that you use for accessing knowledge are central in the structuring of knowledge itself. This is the central point. Did you even study 20th century philosophy? Otherwise this talk is useless.

You're not accepting suggestions? Gotta love that stance there mate. Enjoy the nostalgia juice.

I said I am not accepting suggestions from people who do not grasp the issue.
And just like in the last quote, you tweaked most of my arguments in order to counter them.

[Crissi]

Well, theres always staring at a bright screen for hours is going to strain your eyes faster than looking at a book for a few hours.

[Abolesco]

None of the functions you mentioned can' be done via existing software (underlining is quite an old feature)

And those old journals you mention, whilst they do exist in *some* libraries, most Universities also undertook scanning policies decades ago. We're also talking about schooling here, not necessarily university level education which requires considerably more contextual understanding.

And the whole experience part? I don't agree. I've the collected Dickens on paper, old yellowed gorgeous paper, and digitally. The nostalgia of books is nice, but not even remotely comparable to the theatre or cinema. Those are communal experiences you're discussing.

It's not changing the way we structure knowledge, not even remotely. I've no clue where you believe that books are central to knowledge structure, seeing as knowledge is formulated internally and it doesn't matter where it comes from, all of it is interpreted.

You're not accepting suggestions? Gotta love that stance there mate. Enjoy the nostalgia juice.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...paper-screens/

Interesting article about the pros/cons/differences between screens and physical textbooks. It also has references to studies and reports supporting the idea that we're better suited to a physical book than an eReader. *shrug*

EDIT: To add, when I was going through uni I had a few courses where I opted to use a digital book. I'd already collected and read several books on a tablet, and while it was reasonable for those, I very much so didn't care for using a screen for education purposes. I feel like you have a much better connection to a topic if you're using a physical book (the notes, underlining, highlighting, etc. stuff mentioned earlier has a profoundly stronger impact than you might realize when trying to connect to a topic IMO).

[shadowmouse]

We cannot educate, in part because education turned into accounting. Grading turned into numbers, our syllabus has turned into something beginning to resemble a novel, and students can now min/max a class' grading structure like they approach gaming. I really wish grades could be reduced to pass/fail/honors. Every semester I can say that there are some who didn't get it, some who made it through, and some who impressed. Small differences in score may look more rigorous, but I'm not convinced they really say much about what was learned.

[Malfurion]

in Ontario, teachers in elementary school are being told to begin teaching kids with play. No more math and spelling drills. They want to begin integrating learning through playing and tapping off a child's natural curiosity and drive to play. Hopefully this grows and integrates into more intermediate levels of education for the future.