Why isnt Melee mobility being nerfed in WOD?

[zenga]

That's not the only thing though. I wrote this before - inherent part of ranged/melee balance is that melee should do more raw dps if allowed to stick to target while ranged to a little less but more consistently and at less danger.

That wasn't a thing when everyone suddenly had to do equal / competitive dps. So thus ranged retained their safer/more sustainable damage while melee were brought down, in turn getting a bandaid-fix of much higher uptime in pvp.

It's far more complex than limiting it to 'everyone needs to do equal/competitive dps'. The main reason for me is that blizzard had the desire to come up with 'new and fun abilities' every other patch, abilities that only increased the mobility/slow/immunity arms race. The new dispel system is also more than guilty. And it swings every patch (remember a warrior who could stop 7 or 8 back to back casts a patch or 2 ago) back and forth, and thus casters needed instants to deal with that.

It's a never ending arms race, not so much the need to do equal dps (e.g. dk does most dmg in arena with locks, but dks are far from the best spec) coupled with the new dispel system.

The point is that in an arms race there are 2 sides who have too much, whereas blizzard is pretty much only toning down 1 side. It's too easy to blame casters for that: warriors have had 3 seasons of being incredibly good, feral has been incredibly good the first half of cata (fps being one of the best comps), enhance is a top tier spec, rogues have been OP, very good and bad, the only 2 you could say that have not been too good are rets and dks. But the same is true for casters (affliction locks were bad the first season and later got really good, ele shamans were atrocious until halfway mop, spriests have been god like at first, proper shit and now decent, ... just mages have remained constantly at the top).

It's way too easy to simplify it to ranged vs melee dps, since ferals/unholy and warriors do a substantial amount of their dmg through dots/bleeds.

[Tyze]

Wouldn't make sense and they cant make it work.

[Omaski]

As a Ret pally in PvP we never had any real mobility to start with, our gap closer isnt instant and we have no instant cc breaking ability, escape mechanisms, or decent self healing to help our survivability. Our sustained damage is laughable and outside of wings we wont pose a threat to any class/spec with half a brain.

Yeah, it is hard to keep us snared but its easy to get away from us unless we are using seal of justice, which gimps our damage even more. Most ranged classes can just blink/disengage/AoE fear/etc. then throw a big ass damaging ability right into our face while we "hutt hutt" our asses after you, where it just becomes a never ending struggle to catch you.

our judgement sprint is nowhere near as good as charge, hero leap/BoS or shadow step/2xs grip/feral leap

[Saberstrike]

The main reason for me is that blizzard had the desire to come up with 'new and fun abilities' every other patch, abilities that only increased the mobility/slow/immunity arms race.

I'll agree with you on this.

There's been a video somewhere explaining the concept of 'counterplay' that a lot of other pvp games have. In essence, a lot of the new abilities Blizzard makes up (immunity to interrupt, stampede, priest vanish come to mind) seem to focus on being cool for the user, while at the same time nothing but annoying for the player it's used on, and no real trade-off. This is also where new talent system failed - there were supposed to be trade-offs but in the end one talent is just superior to the rest in almost every way.

That's also exactly what I'm getting at - eg. feral druids had feral charge, moonkins had typhoon; It's a mistake to give -both- to a resto druid.

[Raiju]

If your teammates can't remove those CC's and give you uptime when you go offensive then you deserve to die, and over and over till you find better teammates. Strawman is strawman that goes both ways. If you're going up on a fear class and you have your CD's, wait for the fear cast (most instant fears going away) or just use the tremor preemptively (say against warrior if you know it's off CD). Also disarm is removed.

Pre-emptive tremor is great if you a) are throwing your defensive cd's at using your main cd just to keep pressure while at ranged (lol), The enhancement shaman dying because he got caught in a CC was never in question, so ironic you mention strawman when you strawmanned me to argue that I'm strawmanning...?

The fact is everyone knows ascendance is enhancement (or shamans in general) main cd. It's 3 minutes, and if you HAVE to throw multiple CC's because they are putting everything into making it effective, then you should clearly. As you mentioned it's a team game so I'm immediately going to ask why aren't your teammates countering?

Most CC's have a cast time in WoD something you ignore, interrupt that you locked out your opponent from all his damage and his defensives.

No that's the entire point, because until the more recent builds (after I made comments here) lightning bolt was by far the hardest hitting ability and enhancement has to cast too. If at range you will be doing near 0 damage until you get into range - and at 40 yard range you cannot be interrupted by any melee and they wont be in range in time to stop it (which was the original argument as well)

[Korgoth]

The OP not able to download the PTR or something? My mobility on my warrior was cut in half.

Safeguard - Banner, GONE.
Heroic Leap CD greatly increased.
Charge CD greatly increased.

What more do you casters want?

Stop being ignorant about the state of balance.

[inxi]

The OP not able to download the PTR or something? My mobility on my warrior was cut in half.

Safeguard - Banner, GONE.
Heroic Leap CD greatly increased.
Charge CD greatly increased.

Also Charge stun is gone, both stuns are on the same talent tree now (Shockwave and Stormbolt)

[Shisui-kun]

The OP not able to download the PTR or something? My mobility on my warrior was cut in half.

Safeguard - Banner, GONE.
Heroic Leap CD greatly increased.
Charge CD greatly increased.

What more do you casters want?

Stop being ignorant about the state of balance.

Charge cd hasn't been increased at all, unless you opt to take warbringer, which you could do before. Heroic leap glyph makes the cooldown about the same but only a 20 yard jump. If you don't take the glyph, it will be a a decent nerf yes, but a glyph shouldn't be THAT gamechanging either way.

Anger management makes it possible to stormbolt/shockwave and blade storm/avatar more often aswell, increasing your control. Control wise you only lost an easy spamstring off the GCD and charge stun.

[Arkuri]

All these posts about Warriors having OP up time

- can't spec 2 stuns anymore
- safeguard doesn't break roots
- no-one would ever take bladestorm because it does less damage than white swings
- leap glyph reduced to 20 yard range
- no charge stun anymore


Yep, whole lotta up time right there

There is only one thing there that determines MOBILITY UPTIME.

Hunter's, Rogue, Warrior's have always been highly mobile classes. And I imagine, they will continue to be highly mobile.

Druid's are not too far behind.

Paladin's probably have the lowest mobility uptime; But they're compinsated with the talent to have a over-all passive movement speed increase at the trade off of a weak "sprint".


They removed alot of the mobility from the Healers and Casters of the game because they where pretty damn powerful in Mists when they where added to those classes.

[Sethanor]

thx for this thread, i had a very good laugh ...

im sorry but most (if not all) casters in here are ignorant as shit and dont even know what the hell happened to melee ... everyone ranting about warriors, but no one even knows what they actually lost (warriors can be PERMA-rooted in wod and perma-slowed ... charge is not gonna help with that as much as you all like to think)
and there are a lot more fail-informations going on in here ...

casters have been served the easy side of things for a VERY long time now (being it in pvp or pve) and its time they get tuned back towards the vanilla/tbs model ...

IF we see a 180 shift in ranged/melee representation in pvp and raid-grps using only 1-3 ranged (in 20 man mythic) then yes, you can come back and complain ... until such a time comes: SHUT THE FUCK UP, adapt to the new situation and stop being so ignorant and get your facts right before you start to argue about something.

[Korgoth]

Charge cd hasn't been increased at all, unless you opt to take warbringer, which you could do before. Heroic leap glyph makes the cooldown about the same but only a 20 yard jump. If you don't take the glyph, it will be a a decent nerf yes, but a glyph shouldn't be THAT gamechanging either way.

Anger management makes it possible to stormbolt/shockwave and blade storm/avatar more often aswell, increasing your control. Control wise you only lost an easy spamstring off the GCD and charge stun.

To have charge function as charge has for the past 10 years you have to have a 20s CD on it, instead of 12. That is a big nerf and a CD increase. That you can keep the lower CD but severely gimp the ability with a root does not somehow make it not a massive mobility nerf.
Heroic Leap as well, much longer CD to have the same functionality. No one is going to take the Heroic Skip glyph, it might as well not even exist. That is a big nerf.
And again, no more root break safeguard, no more banner to intervene too. Another big nerf.

Every Warrior Gap Closer was gimped and yet Casters still cry about it... no pleasing them.

- - - Updated - - -

Also Charge stun is gone, both stuns are on the same talent tree now (Shockwave and Stormbolt)

Its a talent now, first tier, on the right.

[spinner981]

Originally there were two categories of classes: Melee and Ranged.

Melee had the strength of casting while moving with the down side of of limited range.

Ranged has the strength of range with the downside of having to stand and cast.

This simple dynamic slowly changed when ranged classes no longer had to cast with many instant spells and being able to move while casting.

While ranged got this benefit that completely nullified their weakness, melee got nothing.

The reduction of ranged mobility and reverting some of these cast changes to require standing still is actually bringing the dynamic back into balance.

While ranged probably have more to help with mobility currently, melee do have many abilities used to counter being out of range, as well as some abilities that allow them to attack from a range. So no, they didn't get nothing.

[Kanariya]

casters have been served the easy side of things for a VERY long time now (being it in pvp or pve) and its time they get tuned back towards the vanilla/tbs model ...

Wanna go back to the Vanilla/TBC model? Sure, sounds great. I had no time keeping melee off of me just by running (with the exception of rogues that crafted crippling poison). Melee had to really work to get to and stick to their ranged targets, didn't have movement speed increases coming out the ass and had very few ways of closing gaps once they were re-opened.

This quote is making me laugh like crazy.

[Baracuda]

The subject is rly more WW monks, Feral druids and rogues, rather than warriors. Armor barely means anything anymore and health is pretty equal so why do the first 3 mentioned still have insane mobility?

[Lulbalance]

thx for this thread, i had a very good laugh ...

im sorry but most (if not all) casters in here are ignorant as shit and dont even know what the hell happened to melee ... everyone ranting about warriors, but no one even knows what they actually lost (warriors can be PERMA-rooted in wod and perma-slowed ... charge is not gonna help with that as much as you all like to think)
and there are a lot more fail-informations going on in here ...

casters have been served the easy side of things for a VERY long time now (being it in pvp or pve) and its time they get tuned back towards the vanilla/tbs model ...

IF we see a 180 shift in ranged/melee representation in pvp and raid-grps using only 1-3 ranged (in 20 man mythic) then yes, you can come back and complain ... until such a time comes: SHUT THE FUCK UP, adapt to the new situation and stop being so ignorant and get your facts right before you start to argue about something.

I don't think you would enjoy reverting to vanil movement mechanics

[Shamanegans]

It goes hand in hand with melee needing to be near their targets to attack them and latency, try playing a melee and fighting against someone that has high latency and you will be standing right on top of them with a message saying "You need to be closer".

I personally think if melee can train you alot then they should have less CC, it's a trade off. Having high mobility mean less CC, no mobility means a bit more CC. Obviously avoidable CC or not as much as you can't get near your target but enough to give you a breather every now and then.

[fguru482]

Imagine a game in which casters and melee had the same mobility (like Mists of Pandaria.) What reason is there to ever play a melee when a ranged can do the same job, but doesn't have to be right next to their target, making both PvE and PvP much easier for them? Why would anyone take a melee in a group when they're an obvious liability?

Ranged have range, but can only use a few weak attacks while moving. Melee can attack while moving, but are limited to a few weak attacks if they get stuck outside of melee range.

Classic case of blizz screwing up and then punishing those who benefited from that screw up.

If the fights have heavy movement in wod i will be convinced that blizz is a mentally retarded kid banging his head against a concrete wall. Or just insane

[willtron]

Burst of speed, cloak and dagger, leap, double charge, double grip, paladin sprint, displacer beast ... not even gonna bring in immunities, while ret/enhance are almost half ranged classes. Gotta stay honest when you want to discuss stuff.

All to counter the fact that Mages could blink out stuns, had double nova, had blazing speed. Hunters had double disengage, resources to kite forever, traps. I could go on.

Long story short, more gap closers = more CC breakers and CC for ranged, it got ridiculous.

[Illana]

All to counter the fact that Mages could blink out stuns, had double nova, had blazing speed. Hunters had double disengage, resources to kite forever, traps. I could go on.

Long story short, more gap closers = more CC breakers and CC for ranged, it got ridiculous.

mages have been able to blink out of stuns since god knows when, never was a problem for warriors before.
Blazing speed is relatively new but you sacrifice pom for it

Double disengage? LOL what hunter would use their 3-5 minute cd to reset disengage XD??

Resources to kite forever? Sorry what does this even mean?

traps? you mean the 1 that breaks on 1 damage or the one that slows the target the same as concussive shot and only covers a fixed area?

I smell a very very bad melee player here.

[Yvaelle]

mages have been able to blink out of stuns since god knows when, never was a problem for warriors before.

What is this, I don't even.

Honestly, so much of the gap closer/opener race revolves around fmages and hunters vs warriors and rogues. They keep trying to give these classes equal and opposite tools, and then everyone else ends up slipping behind and they (historically) compensate with tankiness/self-healing - but then want to match those tools with the above, and everything gets thrown out of whack again.