No Melee

[Deleted]

As you might be able to tell this will be a post, regarding the problems melee dps has compared to ranged.

So let me start of by say that this is not a thread with the intentions to "qq" about being melee, but a real concern as to the usefulness of a Melee DPS.

If any of you ever tried to raid as melee, you might notice some complications in that scenario, not that you are unable to compete with the ranged dps, but rather that you are being treated as a second class citizens. Now, what do I mean by that. In the current state of the game (MOP) and moving forward your typical raid consists of 90% ranged dps and 1 or possibly 2 melee (in before OMG WE HAVE 7 melee dps and we raid!!!!) now as you can see this does posse certain concerns when you are trying to apply for a possible pug raid or a guild.

My problem is - and the purpose of this thread, is to understand why the game is balanced around ranged dps being better in every way?
There are 7 melee specs in the game and only 6 ranged. So why are we only bringing one melee?

I have played the game since the end of vanilla and along the way mostly preferred melee. Now that said I did play my fair bit of ranged in those years to better understand the reasoning behind the balancing around 1-2 melee (in a 10 man grp). In the past melee did provide a clear benefits to the raid (such as interrupts soaking and on stand still fights better dps) but as we move forward and balancing dps and skills becomes better I wonder why this issue was not been addressed. Some fights are currently impossible to do if you have too many melee (sigecrafter hc) but no fights are impossible if you only have ranged. So currently, range dps provides the same utility, the range dps, without the drawback of being melee.

Therefore, my question is, why that is. Why is this not being addressed and why is there no clear benefits/drawback to being melee (i know that in wod they are "trying" to make the ranged suffer on fights where you have to move, but the same fights are even worse for melee because unless you are a rogue you cant dps at all)

So please keep the discussion formal and civilized so we might get some answers.

[Sorshen]

You won't get any answer from the developers here.

[Deleted]

*bosses usually have more mechanics that hit in their immediate vicinity and which melees have to avoid or die, than mechanics that hit at ranged and affecting range dps.
*some bosses take off the ground, at which point melee do 0 dps to it while the ranged can continue doing damage.
*some bosses relocate around the map, which means melee must run after it, during which time they do 0 dps, while the ranged can continue doing damage or require less repositioning.

[Darsithis]

In the current state of the game (MOP) and moving forward your typical raid consists of 90% ranged dps and 1 or possibly 2 melee

I won't disagree that melee tend to be looked down upon but I also can't agree that it's 90% ranged in a group. Our 10 man:

2 tanks,
2 - 3 healers
5 dps (or 6, if we choose to go 2 heal)

2 of those dps are melee, myself and our rogue. 2/5's is not 10% - it's 40%. That's just in the damage group. Add in our tanks (4/10) and we still have...40%. Nearly half of the raid team is melee. In a 25 man, at least my old 25 man back on Proudmoore:

2 tanks,
6 healers
17 dps (or higher if we chose to 5 or 4 heal)

I remember myself, our warrior, our rogue, our second DK, our feral, and our enchancement shaman all comprising the melee side of things. Not counting tanks, that's 35% melee, with tanks against the whole at 32% (dem heals).

If you don't like that a raid group is prioritizing ranged over melee form your own or find a new group to raid with. Blizzard will do what they can to make ranged and melee attractive but it's still on us to form the groups as we want them.

[Alroxas]

So let me start of by say that this is not a thread with the intentions to "qq" about being melee, but a real concern as to the usefulness of a Melee DPS.

Simply put: Melee DPS can do full rotation/priority que for their DPS as long as they are within melee range of Boss AND can be moving while doing their DPS.

Range DPS (with exception of Hunters) are not supposed to be able to do full DPS rotation while on the move. Now I hear what you're going to say, BUT Warlocks can with KJC or Mages (to some degree) with Ice Flows. However, if you look over the notes for WoD, you can clearly see that the devs are removing DPS on the move for most classes/specs (exception made to Hunters).

But even in the special case of Hunters, the most recent notes show various abilities/talents where a Hunter might want to stay fixed (at least for a short time frame).

My problem is - and the purpose of this thread, is to understand why the game is balanced around ranged dps being better in every way? There are 7 melee specs in the game and only 6 ranged. So why are we only bringing one melee?

Bad players? Or Bad raid leaders...

Therefore, my question is, why that is. Why is this not being addressed and why is there no clear benefits/drawback to being melee (i know that in wod they are "trying" to make the ranged suffer on fights where you have to move, but the same fights are even worse for melee because unless you are a rogue you cant dps at all)

Trying? I would give Blizzard a bit more credit than that. Nearly every ranged DPS class has added restrictions (or flat out removal) to DPSing while moving. Warlocks are having KJC modified to a spiritwalker's CD. Mages are being "specialized" so that they won't have as many non-spec instant casts. Ele Shamans have lightning bolt's cast on move being removed. Balance druids and S. priests don't have as many on the move DPS rotations so they are staying put. And even hunters, the class that CAN dps on the move is being given reasons to become a turret (i.e. Sniper Training Mastery for Survival Hunters).

How is melee worse off? They can still DPS while moving. Heck Blizzard even removed positional requirements for feral druids (along with rogues).

Now if you're talking about specific encounter mechanics, there are always reasons why some classes/specs will excel in a particular fight over another class/spec but that's hardly a fault of the class/spec. It's more of a design issue with the encounter and the strategy used to fight that encounter. Of course there are always outliers (i.e Thok) but those are far and few in between all the raid encounters per expansion (and not tier).

[ringpriest]

Therefore, my question is, why that is. Why is this not being addressed and why is there no clear benefits/drawback to being melee (i know that in wod they are "trying" to make the ranged suffer on fights where you have to move, but the same fights are even worse for melee because unless you are a rogue you cant dps at all)

So please keep the discussion formal and civilized so we might get some answers.

Because Blizzard, as an institution, doesn't give a shit about making a good game any more, only a profitable one. As long as they think their internals aren't showing that a significant number of people quit because of the melee/range discrepancy, Blizz won't do a damn thing to fix it. (There's probably someone internally going, "Great! We can force melee players to buy a lvl 90 ranged dps toon if they want to raid!")

[kamuimac]

because in every single mmorpg since beginign of time if player had a shitty spacial orientation he was taking range just to not bite dust all the time - and since most players are weak players (lets not kid ourselves) most take range //shrug

[aziras]

Don't forget that all but one melee dps (rogues) can also tank, and most of them can even tank and heal.

Blizzard very insistently work towards shoe-horning as many players into filling the non-dps roles, as that will make more "full" groups. Ultimately carrying more players through and keeping more players subscribed who would otherwise quit because the other kids don't want to play with them.

Ranged-stacking was a thing even in vanilla. And since they effectively removed mana as a resource it just got even worse.

Is it annoying for the players? hell yeah.
Will they do anything about it? probably not.

[Promdates]

Blizzard very insistently work towards shoe-horning as many players into filling the non-dps roles, as that will make more "full" groups.

Having more tanking classes isn't the same as having more people who play tanks. Honestly, I expect the number of people who play tanks to come down in 6.0 with the removal of vengeance. No more #1 dps tank anymore.

[Tyrgannus]

Casters aren't moving and casting in WoD. Melee can do damage while moving. WoD is attempting to address the gap

[Adhemar]

No more #1 dps tank anymore.

Good riddance.

[AeneasBK]

Speaking as a raid leader - once you have 2 melee who know how to interrupt, you kinda hope to get more ranged than melee. Ranged is just easier :P

[Gumboy]

Our 10 man heroic group was super slow at malkorok because we had three melee, and Thok was about 1000000x harder with four melee, to bad none of them had ranged alts (Our dk tank went dps for thok)

[Sonnillon]

Our 10 man heroic group was super slow at malkorok because we had three melee, and Thok was about 1000000x harder with four melee, to bad none of them had ranged alts (Our dk tank went dps for thok)

Bosses like Malkorok are good example why people don't take melee willingly. I've had 8-9 melee on our HC Malk attempts and it is pain in the **** to say the least.

Sure I've divided groups for sectors(split to 4) so that each group from 1-4 has one or two melee only, but you know... When 5 of the 7 puddles are on the same side and a range DPS/healer is too far away (which can happen if people are not fast enough moving back after the Smashes)... It means that someone dies cause of exploding puddle. It is tough to melee to pay attention (even with camera zoomed out) to every single area behind them (in the group they are assigned to) to notice if a ranged person is not gonna make it (or they think they will get there in time) and take their place. On top even with leaps and whatnot it's a bigger DPS loss for melee then it is for the ranged.

Same with Thok, just melee have more tougher time in maintaining DPS on boss when he is moving while in the same time risking of getting killed cause kiter can make a stupid mistake by accident while moving.

Here I am not saying that melee suck..., but unfortunately some fight right now... just don't favor melee at all and if the fight doesn't favor a certain role/class then that role/class is not taken along. And even if you do have tons of a "not so wanted class/role" along, the fights just become more harder to get down then they would with classes that would make the fights easier.

But my guess for some of the fights and the mechanics is that, melee/ranged balanced what is good for the fight is not tested the same way like the general mechanics and boss damage are. Which in return leads to RL preferring certain role/class over the other to make the fight more easier.

[DemoBytom]

as someone who organizes raids I agree - mele in most situations are more of a burden than anything else. Only reason I'd bring them (except for the fact that I like guys that play them) is their raid CDs.. Devo Aura/Smoke bomb/Rally Cry, banner.. That's all.
And never more than actually necessary. Why? because game favors ranged and sometimes even demands you having them.. Try Blackfuse with only 1 ranged and mistweaver and enjoy sawblades on the tanks >.<' I don't see any encounter that is harder if you have lots of ranged but I see many that are getting harder with mele centered groups :/
What's more it's far easier to avoid stuff on the ground as ranged, even though there's usually more stuff thrown at ranged in the first place. Still, currently ranged can have close to 100% uptime, even on (Small) movement - so they quickly become superior.
The "no casts on the move" in next expansion might bring some sanity in this situation, but it still won't fix all the issues, which are raid mechanics actually forcing a ranged oriented setups and actively punishing you for having more mele than ranged.

Same with Thok, just melee have more tougher time in maintaining DPS on boss when he is moving while in the same time risking of getting killed cause kiter can make a stupid mistake by accident while moving.

Thok is a weird boss, since it favors hunters, above all other classes.. Mele have it easier in p1, if you go for prolonged phase, where casters can't cast anymore. Casters have it easier in p2 when they still can DPS the boss on the move..
Hunters have it cakewalk all the time ;P

[catablitz]

Every role has its uses. I remember myself back then when raidleading, I always used the best possible setup mechanic wise. It is not only about melee vs range, it is also about fight mechanics. I remember using 12 warlocks in first pre nerf KJ kill in SWP and 4 rogues in Anub HC in ToC. Again, it is mechanics that force a decision and of course roster availability. The ideal scenario would be fights where every team (melee and range) execute what is cut to their own potential.
But as mentioned already, come WoD ranged will have it harder.

[Gumboy]

You're only bringing one melee because your melee is terrible. My raid group is balanced between ranged and melee except for very few fights.




I guess putting the groups on opposite sides of the boss was too hard...

Sounds like your players need to step up their game. Mages with double blink and speed boost(from engineering or tier 1 talent) can easily get any puddle on that platform(I know as I've been the floater before).

Yes, random mmo champion poster, you are the god of knowing everything about what is preferred!


Or, you could actually look at the games mechanics right now, and realize that as of right now, ranged>>>>>>>>>melee, and it is not even close. Can it be done? Yes, no shit, it can be done. Would it be a lot easier with more ranged then melee? Obviously.


"Except for very few fights" you bring a balanced comp. We did not say every single fight. We mentioned a couple fights. And yet you have to be arrogant about how your melee are so awesome, its pretty hilarious.

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking as a raid leader - once you have 2 melee who know how to interrupt, you kinda hope to get more ranged than melee. Ranged is just easier :P

Isn't it funny how everyone but the extremely arrogant person is saying basically the same thing? Probably super mad that casters are getting mobility nerfed.

[kamuimac]

a
What's more it's far easier to avoid stuff on the ground as ranged, even though there's usually more stuff thrown at ranged in the first place.

and this is one of the core reasons most people prefer ranged - cause most layers really are terrible at avoiding mechanics so in order to actully kill bosses people choose the path of least resistance and stack range //shrug good melee players never have it hard to get into kills - its the weak melee who re sit out all the time.

[Sonnillon]

Sounds like your players need to step up their game. Mages with double blink and speed boost(from engineering or tier 1 talent) can easily get any puddle on that platform(I know as I've been the floater before).

See, by stating this above means, that ranged are preferred, specially a class hunter/mage/druid with fast movement. Ofc my people need to step up the game, no doubt about it, but "like mage can do this, that and third thing" makes it all to clear that some fight require more of a certain class or more ranged. Warrior can do the same thing with the jump, druids with the blink, but ya know, still you would want to make the boss kill easier for you by bringing ranged pref. with good mobility and dps on the move

ranged>>>>>>>>>melee, and it is not even close.

In all honesty on some bosses it feels like that, while others it doesn't. The funniest thing is that melee bring some decent raid wide CDs, yet you cannot have too many unless you want to make the fight harder then it is... Why do you think Shaman's are done melee and ranged separate

[DemoBytom]

I might be wrong here.. But I don't think there's a boss in current WoW that's near impossible with ranged only setup.. But there's at least few that are impossible with mele only one..
Every single bit of raid organization is easier with ranged.. They have it easier to move, easier to switch targets. It's easier to spread out as ranged, not to mention all the mechanics that either only interact with ranged or are designed to be dealt by ranged...
To be fair I'm not sure what can be done to change that..
Give mele more DPS to offset them being harder to fit? That would flop with high end guilds just stacking them and lower end guilds just failing trying to do the same..
Give them more raid CDs.. Well it didn't really work out in Mists..
Force mechanics that require mele players? Like have an explosion that deals shitton of dmg unless certain number of mele soak it, while you need certain number at range?.. That could work in limited scope..
But overall - I just don't know. Currently I feel sad whenever a mele applies to our guild (and there have been like 15 over the last 6 months) and I wish they had ranged offspecs.. :/ That's not good, but that's how the game functions today :/