Newest patch notes and casting-on-the-move

[Anetulan]

I think for the Arcane Mage section you mean Arcane Explosion instead of Arcane Blast. Also, spirit walkers grace is every 2 minutes, not every 20 as you have Also shamans can drop their totems while moving, including searing which they try to keep up all the time. Also, they took out the perk that made it so frost shock wasn't on the shared cooldown.

Keep in mind too that while these may be instant cast moves, at times they could be useless, such as cone of cold requiring you to be near your target. Also, many of these things you can cast while moving don't do much, like shadow word pain, or ice lance without a proc, though this is better than having nothing.

As someone who is maining an ele sham, I'm not too worried. While losing lightning bolt hurts, I think between the shocks and unleash flame, we should be okay.

[Archmage Arugal]

I think for the Arcane Mage section you mean Arcane Explosion instead of Arcane Blast. Also, spirit walkers grace is every 2 minutes, not every 20 as you have Also shamans can drop their totems while moving, including searing which they try to keep up all the time. Also, they took out the perk that made it so frost shock wasn't on the shared cooldown. Keep in mind too that while these may be instant cast moves, at times they could be useless, such as cone of cold requiring you to be near your target. Also, many of these things you can cast while moving don't do much, like shadow word pain, or ice lance without a proc, though this is better than having nothing. As someone who is maining an ele sham, I'm not too worried. While losing lightning bolt hurts, I think between the shocks and unleash flame, we should be okay.

This bit in particular is why we really want Fel Flame back, and why we'd be fine with it doing reduced damage

[Moggie]

Man, sometimes one just has to admit the horse is beyond six feet under. =P

Debating among each other really isn't going to accomplish anything on a fan site. Seriously, it doesn't solve anything and there will be those "unfortunate" ones who will wander in and argue against every single Warlock. And they will have point by point rebuttals for anything brought up. May be falacies and ignorance, but feeding the unfortunate ones isn't helping any.

The list has already had an earlier version. It was posted to Blizz and Twitter to show their own bias and discrepancy when applying their standard to "casters" aka/Warlocks and Elemental Shamans. But, like anybody who is being attacked they chose to ignore it. How's this list any different? Mages and SPriests, as well as Boomkins and Hunters (yes, they are ranged plain and simple even if a couple of their specs are quite meh) have it far easier than Warlocks. Even Ele really isn't that bad. As Maythael pointed out, their mastery is pretty uber and is designed to make up for the loss of their movement ability. If Warlocks could be so lucky.

And to clear it up because there's always some unfortunate one who tries it, just because blizz F'd up and never bothered to balance anything during MoP, namely 5.4, absolutely does not mean there should be some punishment to the class and treated as an after thought. Argue your bullet points or w/e you want about how difficult your class is and oh so lacking. It doesn't change the original point, which is the Devs applied a standard veiling it as a "ranged" nerf to only one class. Not all classes. Just one. That's why Warlocks are up in arms about things and rightfully pissed off. There's no "balancing" happening between all the ranged classes. Zilch. Stop pulling at straws trying to back your debates up, unfortunate ones.

And finally, since the Alpha, not a single Warlock has been able to get even ONE thing changed to help the class. The Devs have been absolutely dead set in their ways. Maybe they'll eventually see their errors but not before bad things happen. And it's now the end of the Beta, historically past the point mechanics are modified. Remember how they were supposedly in the "process" of toying with KJC and no Fel Flame. Oops? They had zero intentions of ever going back. Ever.

Anyways, not a single Warlocks has affecting anything yet, so who really believes some random Warlock who just got into the Beta will be able to rise above all the others? Not knocking the OP since it was and still is a valid point they're making, but unless something big happens before the game goes Live, I am 97% positive it will accomplish nothing as usual. So why're people debating non freaking stop over it? Again, accomplishment = zero. I've not even seen anybody besides a few Demo loving locks trying to buff their actual damage. And my goodness is it old reading more "I need fel flame or KJC cause otherwise the spec is boring." Have said this before but that kind of reasoning, if it can be called that just doesn't hold anything. =p

[Raugnaut]

Affliction and Destro have been hit very hard in terms of QoL come WoD.

Affliction has 3 major changes that greatly affect it- Seed of Corruption change (can no longer have SS-Seed and Seed on 1 target), Fel Flame removal (Affliction has to pay a significant price to remove the numerous totem/banner mobs in the world, or micro-manage their pet. This makes PvP especially more difficult vs shamans. Finally, Affliction no longer has a way to pop a seed to start a seed reaction), and Soul Swap change (Soul Swap is very powerful currently in a world where dots are snapshotted. Come MoP, non-soul burn Soul Swap is a mere QoL thing- it takes 1(!) less GCD to spread DoTs with Soul Swap then it does with manual casting, and 2 less GCDs to freshly DoT something. And yet, somehow, blizzard decides this is OP and nerfs Soul Swap to the ground- 2 shards +1 GCD to put up 3 DoTs on one target, 1 shard + 2 GCDs to spread the DoTs to 1 other target).

The Drain Soul refunding 1 shard is a significant loss to solo-play as well (although it was decently powerful in raiding situations). I will NOT be leveling as affliction next expansion for sure.

For Destro, they are now super turrets. Immolate, at the very least, should be usable while casting.

As for Archimonde's Darkness.. I really, REALLY don't get the hype about Archimonde's Darkness. It does three things- The first is that it gives you 1 extra Dark Soul/fight, providing that you would be using Dark Soul on CD at every available opportunity. The second is that it gives you the ability to "bank" Dark Souls- this is the biggest dps boost to this talent, as it allows you to have more leeway on when you trigger your burst, which is where the damage for Destro warlocks really matters. The third, which is really what causes the second point, is that it prevents you from "wasting" dark soul uptime should you normally wait a few seconds before using Dark Soul without Darkness.

For Destro, Darkness has a static value- 30% more crit chance for 20 seconds/fight. KJC, AND Mannoroth's Fury, however, provide a large dps boost every time you use them throughout the fight- in a 10 minute fight, Darkness will provide 1% more crit chance for that fight. KJC WILL provide significantly more dps on any fight with periodic movement, and Mannoroths will provide more dps on any fight with frequent AoE situations.

[Shamran]

It is a long post but let's address thing as they come up: Well first we should probably look at things as they are now. Most spell casters are fairly "turret-based" in particular SPriests, Arcane Mages (RoP), and Balance Druids. Of the more mobile spell casters, Warlocks and Ele. Shamans reign supreme.

This is a post about the conditions of WoD, not the remaning two months of live. I apologize if that wasn't clear.

To my knowledge, Arcane blast still has a cast time and can't be casted on the move unless preempted by PoM or Ice Flows.

I meant Arcane Explosion. It's been changed in the original post.

It should be noted that Starsurge and Starfall share charges in WoD (beta). Which on used is based on either single target or AoE.

True. It doesn't make them any less usable while moving, though.

Here's something interesting. So for Destro Warlocks, you explicitly state the limitations but for Mages you don't. To me this doesn't seem to be an objective review but instead biased heavily to your view point. Let's clarify that it does seem (to me at least) that there is some favoritism.

There isn't favouritism. I don't mean there to be any, at least. However, as a person, I do take issue when things are being made out to be something they're not. As with the so-called mobility nerf of all caster classes. So, what you're detecting is perhaps a slight sense of feeling mislead, rather than favouritism. But fair point.

Well how is the current form of KJC not a mandatory talent for warlocks (especially Destro)? Nearly every destro warlock I've seen has KJC over the other two talents.

Well, I don't use it. So, there's one at least. However, this post wasn't about KJC. Most people, even most Warlocks, agree that KJC was problematic. When that's said, I can't see that my post argues that a mandatory talent is a good idea, so I'm not quite getting your point here.

Hmm... PoM is being restricted to Arcane mages only. Additionally alter time (AT) has been reworked to only restore position and HP (buffs/debuffs, mana are not restored). I would say that's a substantial removal.

The removal of PoM for Frost and Fire Mages is mentioned in the original post. AT has very little to do with being able to deal damage on the move. In it's current state, only in the situation where you'd store an BF proc, HS proc or a 4 x AC Arc. Barrage will it be an upgrade to damage-while-moving toolkit compared to WoD state. But, I did say I'm a hairsplitting moron, and as such, it's true: If mages pressed AT at the right time, they'll have an extra instant cast every 90 sec. compared to what'll be the case in WoD.

While I realize the scope of your topic is limited to casting on the move, I would caution people to also look at the large picture of Warlock DPS (and shamans as well) as a whole.

For instance, it's not mentioned by Shamran, but Destro Warlock can have the ability to Fire and Brimstone Chaos Bolts. In an AoE burst situation, that seems incredibly OP when compared to other classes yet I haven't heard any complaints on that.

That is the scope, yes. And to that end, Warlocks didnt, and will not, deal too much damage because of mobility. They did too much damage because they did too much damage. It's a tuning issue, first, not necessarily a mobility issue.

[Ryken]

Too many "examples" for other classes aren't given much thought. You've just gone through and listed ones that are instant cast and thrown 'em in. We agree that moving while casting should be a net total increase right? That means, using spells while moving, just to use them, shouldn't be done if its a net DPS loss. You shouldn't waste a 4 charge ABr if you need to keep charges, you wouldn't cast nether tempest without 4 stacks, meaning it isn't "unconditional". Water Jet listed? A pet ability? Sure, go ahead and list every lock pet ability you can use while moving. Also water jet is a DPS increase for CASTING FROSTBOLT while its being channeled, it is its purpose. So you wouldn't use water jet for moving, since you need to be casting with it... using it while moving would be a DPS loss. So many examples its beyond belief. You're going to stupid extremes to prove a point while losing sight of the point.

[The Kao]

Breaking news. There is hardly any encounter that requires more than 2 - 3 seconds of movement at a time when played correctly, which is easily filled with available spells for any class. Yes, that means the group and especially the tanks have to play the encounter in a way so that casters don't have to run that much, which is part of the skill cap for a raid group. Also: gap closing abilities.

There you have it. Problem solved. You'll be fine.

[Shamran]

As for limitations on Mage abilities

Ice Lance (UnconditionalConditional) - It's a DPS loss to cast IL without FoF Proc (loss of 25% buff AND frozen target debuff)
Freeze - It's also a 2-button push (Like RoF).

Regarding Ice Lance: It's not a matter of whether or not it's a dps loss. Of course it is. However, pressing Ice Lance is more damage than pressing nothing. It's a worthwhile button to push on the move. To that end, that's also why no one is arguing KJC should be restored. Most warlocks are just a tad confused as to why Fel Flame had to go as well. For all I care, and as I write in the OP, make Fel Flame out to be the equivalent of a non-FOF Ice Lance. That'd be just fine.

Regarding Freeze: You're right, it is. I thought about including that, but decided fair not to since it's off the GCD and that you can cast it at the same time as you're firing off a BF FFB, for example.

Mirror Image - went from baseline to talent so technically can be a loss of an instant cast (although the trade off is that MI is a lot stronger in WoD than it is on live).

To call it the loss of an instant cast when you can still choose it as a talent is a stretch in my book - especially since MI isn't in competetion with any of the newly added instant cast damage talents.

I get that you're trying to argue that all things should be portrayed fairly. And I genuinely don't feel like I've deliberately misrepresented the conditions under which each caster class must now deal damage while moving. Also, you'd have a much easier time getting this point across if you weren't basing your arguments on the mobility of mages. :-)

- - - Updated - - -

I think for the Arcane Mage section you mean Arcane Explosion instead of Arcane Blast. Also, spirit walkers grace is every 2 minutes, not every 20 as you have

OP has been updated to reflect that. Thanks for the input.

Also shamans can drop their totems while moving, including searing which they try to keep up all the time. Also, they took out the perk that made it so frost shock wasn't on the shared cooldown.

I tried to steer clear of passive damage sources. I've not mentioned Warlock pets, Shaman totems, Frost Mage pets, Shadow Priest Apparitions and so on. I mentioned the Shaman Mastery because Blizzard specifically mentions that as a on offset to not being able to do so much damage on the move.

The reason for focusing on things that you can actively do to cast and deal damage while moving is that this has as much to do with gameplay feel as it has to do with doing competitve damage. More so, even.

Also, many of these things you can cast while moving don't do much, like shadow word pain, or ice lance without a proc, though this is better than having nothing.

The latter part of your statement, more so than anything, is the point of the post.

- - - Updated - - -

Man, sometimes one just has to admit the horse is beyond six feet under. =P

Debating among each other really isn't going to accomplish anything on a fan site. Seriously, it doesn't solve anything and there will be those "unfortunate" ones who will wander in and argue against every single Warlock. And they will have point by point rebuttals for anything brought up. May be falacies and ignorance, but feeding the unfortunate ones isn't helping any.

The list has already had an earlier version. It was posted to Blizz and Twitter to show their own bias and discrepancy when applying their standard to "casters" aka/Warlocks and Elemental Shamans. But, like anybody who is being attacked they chose to ignore it. How's this list any different? Mages and SPriests, as well as Boomkins and Hunters (yes, they are ranged plain and simple even if a couple of their specs are quite meh) have it far easier than Warlocks. Even Ele really isn't that bad. As Maythael pointed out, their mastery is pretty uber and is designed to make up for the loss of their movement ability. If Warlocks could be so lucky.

And to clear it up because there's always some unfortunate one who tries it, just because blizz F'd up and never bothered to balance anything during MoP, namely 5.4, absolutely does not mean there should be some punishment to the class and treated as an after thought. Argue your bullet points or w/e you want about how difficult your class is and oh so lacking. It doesn't change the original point, which is the Devs applied a standard veiling it as a "ranged" nerf to only one class. Not all classes. Just one. That's why Warlocks are up in arms about things and rightfully pissed off. There's no "balancing" happening between all the ranged classes. Zilch. Stop pulling at straws trying to back your debates up, unfortunate ones.

And finally, since the Alpha, not a single Warlock has been able to get even ONE thing changed to help the class. The Devs have been absolutely dead set in their ways. Maybe they'll eventually see their errors but not before bad things happen. And it's now the end of the Beta, historically past the point mechanics are modified. Remember how they were supposedly in the "process" of toying with KJC and no Fel Flame. Oops? They had zero intentions of ever going back. Ever.

Anyways, not a single Warlocks has affecting anything yet, so who really believes some random Warlock who just got into the Beta will be able to rise above all the others? Not knocking the OP since it was and still is a valid point they're making, but unless something big happens before the game goes Live, I am 97% positive it will accomplish nothing as usual. So why're people debating non freaking stop over it? Again, accomplishment = zero. I've not even seen anybody besides a few Demo loving locks trying to buff their actual damage. And my goodness is it old reading more "I need fel flame or KJC cause otherwise the spec is boring." Have said this before but that kind of reasoning, if it can be called that just doesn't hold anything. =p

Never give in, never surrender.

Also, I'm an argumentative, hairsplitting, pedantic bastard. So when someone, Blizzard, tries to pass something off as something it isn't, my fingers start to itch. Likely, it won't make a difference, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't bring it up. That's all, really.

- - - Updated - - -

Too many "examples" for other classes aren't given much thought. You've just gone through and listed ones that are instant cast and thrown 'em in. We agree that moving while casting should be a net total increase right?

As compared to standing still, doing your rotation, no. As compared to moving and not pushing a button, yes.

That means, using spells while moving, just to use them, shouldn't be done if its a net DPS loss.

If, by that, you mean that it'd be a dps gain to not use a given ability while moving because you'd do more damage on the encounter as a whole if you first moved, while doing nothing, and then used whatever ability you're referring to after you've stopped moving? Yes. Then you should not use that particular ability, but use something else while you move - if you have something else to use while you move.

Could you perhaps go a little further into detail about when this situation would occur for the classes listed in the original post? That'd be extremely helpful, and perhaps, those conditions could be included in the list.

You shouldn't waste a 4 charge ABr if you need to keep charges, you wouldn't cast nether tempest without 4 stacks, meaning it isn't "unconditional".

Good points. And Arcane Mages have traditionally also had movement issues, still do. However, as mentioned in the thread on the Blizzard forum: "It's not an evaluation of how to optimize your damage on the move. It's an evaluation of what toolkits each ranged class and spec has available while moving. Often, of course, those two things will interact".

To that end, and as a response to the conditions you lay out: Press Arcane Explosion or Arcane Orb? Not great damage, not optimal. But damage buttons that you can push, even if you make the choice to hold off your Arc. Barrage or Your NT because you deem it to do more damage to use them later.

Then press Water Jet listed? A pet ability? Sure, go ahead and list every lock pet ability you can use while moving. Also water jet is a DPS increase for CASTING FROSTBOLT while its being channeled, it is its purpose. So you wouldn't use water jet for moving, since you need to be casting with it... using it while moving would be a DPS loss.

Again, you're right. It wouldn't be optimal. And again, that's not the point of the post. Thankfully, though - although I might be wrong on this one - I think Frost Mages have one or two other things they can do while moving. :-) I will say this, though. Since a similar point was made by, Alroxas, it might be more fair to altogether leave out when pressing something, like Conflagrate impaired by BD charges, isn't optimal.

So many examples its beyond belief.

And yet, when actually keeping in line with the premises of the OP, you've not managed to refute a single one.

- - - Updated - - -

OP updated to not reflect damage loss scenarios connected to abilities that can be used while moving.

[Nighthaven-]

The root of Blizzards main design-flaw is that any warlock spec simply has too few core abilities.

The MoP version of KJC which some people may consider 'OP' is only ever so only because we spam the sh*t out of that one filler for either of the specs.


It's not a flaw with KJC itself, the core rotation is way too brain-dead and simplistic.
Returning to the 'old-ways' with 1/10 of the arsenal is not possible without having the game feeling (and being) dull and passively retarded.


Furthermore, when rotations become that simplistic: rotations themselves can easily be played by bots - and many people will choose to do so, as many of these only find entertainment in 'gear reward.'
There's essentially no gameplay anymore, as the remainder of what's the left of the game is only there to feed 'retards*' with gear addiction/ Diablo style.

*narrow minded, easily entertained, favoring reward by time spent instead of they're actually doing in a game.

[Shamran]

This has been brought by someone else in the thread on the Blizzard Forum: Anyone know of ways to have that thread displayed on the US forum as well when you have an European account?

[Jessicka]

This has been brought by someone else in the thread on the Blizzard Forum: Anyone know of ways to have that thread displayed on the US forum as well when you have an European account?

Get a US trial account, make a character on a US realm.

[PickleballAce]

Breaking news. There is hardly any encounter that requires more than 2 - 3 seconds of movement at a time when played correctly, which is easily filled with available spells for any class. Yes, that means the group and especially the tanks have to play the encounter in a way so that casters don't have to run that much, which is part of the skill cap for a raid group. Also: gap closing abilities.

There you have it. Problem solved. You'll be fine.

That's fine. I guess we can remove Scorch and Ice Lance and all of the other mobile spells and make Hunter cast time spells get interrupted upon movement.

If we don't need them, they don't either. Right?

[Gorthan]

Breaking news. There is hardly any encounter that requires more than 2 - 3 seconds of movement at a time when played correctly, which is easily filled with available spells for any class. Yes, that means the group and especially the tanks have to play the encounter in a way so that casters don't have to run that much, which is part of the skill cap for a raid group. Also: gap closing abilities.

There you have it. Problem solved. You'll be fine.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that warlock will suck due the lack of spells castable on the move. And you are right, minimizing raid movement is part of the skill cap for both the raid and the player.
The point is that blizzard clearly said that they want to limit the ability for caster to cast on the move and they did for warlock and shaman only. Not to mention the fact that for some of us it is FUN to do that. It makes the game feel more..."interactive".

[Shamran]

Get a US trial account, make a character on a US realm.

Simple. Thank you.

[Deleted]

You do realise that you have the option of having a permanent pet which you can buff via talents, which gives you a clear advantage on heavy movement fights over other casters.

[Gorthan]

You do realise that you have the option of having a permanent pet which you can buff via talents, which gives you a clear advantage on heavy movement fights over other casters.

If you don't consider hunters and frost mages.

[Shamran]

You do realise that you have the option of having a permanent pet which you can buff via talents, which gives you a clear advantage on heavy movement fights over other casters.

First of all, I've generally steered clear of passive damage sources like pets. And no, this isn't done to skew the big picture in favour of Warlocks. I've not counted for things like Warlock pets, Frost Mage pets, Shadow Priest Apparitions, Druid trees, Shaman Totems etc., because this is primarily about your options to actively deal damage while moving. The reason for this is that this very much has as much to do with game play feel - having a worthwhile button to push when you run - as it has to do with competitive damage.

If it was only about competitive damage, you could solve the problem by tuning. In the extreme:

"Warlocks are now the only class without a "toggle run" function. Additionally, we've removed the following abilities: Conflagrate, Rain of Fire and Shadowburn. We realize that this change might impair Destruction Warlocks in terms of doing competitive damage, so, in turn, Chaos Bolt now does a gazillion, floppity-jillion damage".

Problem solved: Warlocks do competitive damage even if they can't run or cast anything while moving. But likely, it wouldn't be particularly engaging or immersive to play a Warlock like that.

Aside from that: For Destro and Aff, a GoSup pet does about 15K dps on live. That's below both that of Frost Mage pets and well below Hunter pets. So to say warlock pets gives a clear advantage over other ranged is perhaps a stretch.

[nocturnus]

I've always said pets shouldn't do any damage at all. They should provide character controlled utility. E.g. dispelling, shielding, stunning, silencing, etc...

There's absolutely nothing engaging about a passive damage source.

I still don't fully comprehend the change to snapshotting. What does that mean for us? Do we have to wait for a dot to drop, before reapplying it?

[Deleted]

I've always said pets shouldn't do any damage at all. They should provide character controlled utility. E.g. dispelling, shielding, stunning, silencing, etc...

There's absolutely nothing engaging about a passive damage source.

I still don't fully comprehend the change to snapshotting. What does that mean for us? Do we have to wait for a dot to drop, before reapplying it?

It means that when your procs are up, you use haunt, and channel drain soul. Before you would attempt to reapply dots, and let them stay up as long as possible, now it doesn't really matter, you just have to make sure you can use haunt (And that your dots wont run off).

[Deleted]

Although I can appreciate the amount of effort you put into this OP, you are probably about 2-4 months late with this for it to matter any. They aren't going to half the classes in the game with less than 2months away from the expansion hitting shelves.

They just removed Colossus Smash from the Fury rotation. There is still a chance.