[Anime]Fate/Stay Night 2014

[Sal the Shieldhog]

It was also implied that grail war was more than it seemed to be. Not even Tohsaka, heir to one of the families behind the war, was aware of it. The clocktower did not know what the grail's purpose was.

More Heaven's Feel spoilers than UBW, really: Oh yeah, nearly forgot about that. The Grail's original intention was to open a path to the Root (which is ultimately the goal of most magi). During the 3rd Holy Grail War, the Einzberns cheated and summoned the Servant Avenger rather than a Berserker-class Servant. Avenger, the Zoroastrian God and personification of All the World's Evils, was horribly weak and died very early on. When he went into the Grail, he corrupted it, and over time it became his vessel. His corruption allowed for evil or anti-hero Servants (Like Medea, Medusa, Gilles de Rais, etc) to be summoned. This also made any wishes the winners would make become fulfilled in the worst way possible, usually by killing everyone and everything.

Nobody really knew this, and that's why it's considered minor. On top of them not being able to say anything about Shirou and Gilgamesh, they have to keep the story to how it is or they'll be found out. This is never really explained in Unlimited Blade Works, it's really Heaven's Feel where this comes in.

[Darksoldierr]

I would have a question regarding Emiya, so in Unlimited Blade Works, we know he became Archer, but does that means, he becomes Archer in every other route too?

[Sal the Shieldhog]

I would have a question regarding Emiya, so in Unlimited Blade Works, we know he became Archer, but does that means, he becomes Archer in every other route too?

The chance for Shirou to become Archer in any of the three routes is actually very, very low. It's still possible, but Nasu says it's really really not likely. After Fate, Shirou continues on his path to become a hero, dies with no regrets, and goes to be with Saber in Avalon. In UBW, he stays with Rin and she keeps him from losing his way. In HF, he gives up his ideals entirely to save Sakura.

It's speculated that Archer is from the not-included Illya route (what remained of her route was supposedly incorporated with Heaven's Feel), but nothing is really known about that timeline. All that's known is he summoned Saber (he says it's one of the moments he treasures most), won the Holy Grail War, then went on his path to become a hero and lost his way. He is Shirou, but not from any of the timelines of the routes.

[Asetotti]

More Heaven's Feel spoilers than UBW, really: Oh yeah, nearly forgot about that. The Grail's original intention was to open a path to the Root (which is ultimately the goal of most magi). During the 3rd Holy Grail War, the Einzberns cheated and summoned the Servant Avenger rather than a Berserker-class Servant. Avenger, the Zoroastrian God and personification of All the World's Evils, was horribly weak and died very early on. When he went into the Grail, he corrupted it, and over time it became his vessel. His corruption allowed for evil or anti-hero Servants (Like Medea, Medusa, Gilles de Rais, etc) to be summoned. This also made any wishes the winners would make become fulfilled in the worst way possible, usually by killing everyone and everything.

Nobody really knew this, and that's why it's considered minor. On top of them not being able to say anything about Shirou and Gilgamesh, they have to keep the story to how it is or they'll be found out. This is never really explained in Unlimited Blade Works, it's really Heaven's Feel where this comes in.

Heaven's Feel spoilers:
On top of that, only Einzberns seemed to know that the true plan was to use True magic/sorcery (heaven's feel) to reach the root. Even Zouken only seemed to know that they were going to reach the root using the grail and the Einzbern's magic but never did he seem to realize they were going to use the Third Magic for it. He even forgot that their reason for the war was to reach the root, not immortality.

Einzberns cheated from the beginning. Clocktower really knew nothing.

[Darksoldierr]

Cheers, thanks for the explanations!

[Venant]

Question about Shinji:


1. Is there any explanation for why he is a murderous psychopath?

2. Why do they keep showing him leniency, considering that he has already shown that he is willing to kill innocent people?

3. Why do they react more severely to Soichiro? When they confront him the first time, he says that he isn't aware of Caster's actions and that he is going to sit back and not take part in the grail war, but will allow Caster to do as she pleases. Then Saber immediately tries to kill him, even though he said he was not going to fight.



Extra question:


4. Gil states that they can summon the grail once 6 of the servants have been killed. If archer had used spirit form to avoid being killed by Gil's attack, then there wouldn't have been 6 servants killed, since Archer/Saber/Gil would still be alive. Wouldn't this mean they shouldn't have been able to summon the grail?

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Question about Shinji:


1. Is there any explanation for why he is a murderous psychopath?

2. Why do they keep showing him leniency, considering that he has already shown that he is willing to kill innocent people?

3. Why do they react more severely to Soichiro? When they confront him the first time, he says that he isn't aware of Caster's actions and that he is going to sit back and not take part in the grail war, but will allow Caster to do as she pleases. Then Saber immediately tries to kill him, even though he said he was not going to fight.



Extra question:


4. Gil states that they can summon the grail once 6 of the servants have been killed. If archer had used spirit form to avoid being killed by Gil's attack, then there wouldn't have been 6 servants killed, since Archer/Saber/Gil would still be alive. Wouldn't this mean they shouldn't have been able to summon the grail?

Shinji: He and his father were originally meant to be Zouken's successors, but they failed and have no ability to practice magecraft because they have no Servants. That's why Sakura was adopted. Shinji did... Things that make him kinda fucked up, but it goes against Shirou's ideaology to kill someone. Even Rin, for all her spouting and ranting about killing people, won't do it. Neither of them are that kind of people.

They figure it'll be harder to take down Caster than just head for her Master and take him out. They weren't expecting him to be as OP as he was. Something like that would be considered highly unusual, most Masters fought from the back or side lines. They avoid him, after that, and Rin goes straight for Caster.

For the Grail, if no wish is made, then the Grail will retain the prana from a prior War. Normally, it's about 60 years in between each War. Because of the way the 4th War ended, it kept hold of that stored prana and caused the 5th War to begin 10 years after the 4th. It's also why the Grail seems to be so powerful, Avenger is close to gaining his resurrection at that point. There were 5 Servants' worth of prana in it already, as well as the dead Servants from the 5th War, so it was much bigger than normal. Aside from the, the Grail draws on prana from the Root/Akasha, so it's a nearly unlimited prana source under the right conditions.

[Shinzai]

Question about Shinji:

1. Is there any explanation for why he is a murderous psychopath?

Inferiority complex, since Sakura can actually control the Servant, where as he cannot, despite being from a previously prestigious line of mages. He's basically considered second rate to the girl that was adopted into his family. So, he vents his hatred and rage at anyone who doubts him or looks down on him.

2.Why do they keep showing him leniency, considering that he has already shown that he is willing to kill innocent people?

They're idiots. More realistically, it's the whole "We shouldn't kill anyone! Try to be friends with everyone!" stuff. They should have killed him. It's more a general manga/anime/VN trope than anything. Shirou's been friends with him for a long time and doesn't want to kill him if he can avoid it, despite the fact he's a shitlord.

3. Why do they react more severely to Soichiro? When they confront him the first time, he says that he isn't aware of Caster's actions and that he is going to sit back and not take part in the grail war, but will allow Caster to do as she pleases. Then Saber immediately tries to kill him, even though he said he was not going to fight.

They assumed it would be easy to kill him and they saw him as an easy chance to remove Caster from the game, with minimal overall casualties. They hadn't the slightest inclining that he was actually crazily powerful ex assassin. Caster was basically seen as too large a threat to attack directly originally, so they went after him. In this case, they judge that killing him is worth it stop Caster, where as Shinji doesn't show himself or his Servant as being a threat until further in.

Extra question:

4. Gil states that they can summon the grail once 6 of the servants have been killed. If archer had used spirit form to avoid being killed by Gil's attack, then there wouldn't have been 6 servants killed, since Archer/Saber/Gil would still be alive. Wouldn't this mean they shouldn't have been able to summon the grail?

I'd have to go back and double check, but I believe that it was basically an imperfect summoning, which is what caused it to go out of control.

Pffft Shadow.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Pffft Shadow

Pls, that's the canon explanation, and what makes the most sense.

[Venant]

They're idiots. More realistically, it's the whole "We shouldn't kill anyone! Try to be friends with everyone!" stuff. They should have killed him. It's more a general manga/anime/VN trope than anything. Shirou's been friends with him for a long time and doesn't want to kill him if he can avoid it, despite the fact he's a shitlord.

How they act towards Soichiro goes against the whole 'we shouldn't kill anyone' thing though. By that point in the series, Shinji had already tried to kill everyone in the school, which you think would make him far worse than somebody who had just declared he was going to be a pacifist.

The only 'out' here would be that they didn't consider Shinji a threat anymore once he lost his first servant, since he isn't able to use magic himself. His character progression is basically jerk -> physically abuses his sister -> attempted mass murderer -> attempted rapist, and he clearly displays that if he ever gets any type of power he is going to abuse it and hurt people in the future. Perhaps this is meant to show that the MCs beliefs mean he will save even the worst type of person, but it doesn't really serve as a challenge to those beliefs because it just doesn't address that the person being saved will continue to be evil.

Part of the weakness of the story for me is that it gives a free pass for Shirou being completely insane with his belief in being able to be a hero and save everybody. The only way this belief could be realized is if Shirou actually becomes god, and the mechanics of this are already in place in the universe because he is stuck in a time loop. If the Shirou in UBW becomes Archer again, he will eventually go back in time again, and meet himself again, and pass his power on to his past self again, and that Shirou will be even more powerful.

With this time loop, Shirou will eventually become god because he will gain limitless power, and then he will realize his ideal of being a hero and saving literally everyone. Of course in a world like this, everyone will be essentially stripped of free agency, because Shirou will be the ultimate decider of what anyone can or cannot do. It's the paradox of absolute good + supreme power = absolute evil.