Why do people deny they are simplifying the game when Blizz says explicitily they are

[Zaqwert]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/09/18/wo...blizzard-says/

"So we are always trying to simplify the game, while at the same time add new things so that the total complexity does not get completely out of control. And you could already argue that the complexity of WoW is already huge. That can be overwhelming to new people coming in."

And yet when anybody talks about the game becoming progressively more and more simplified people get agitated and deny that's happening, even when the lead developer is saying that's actually what they try to do.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

An explicit question with an obvious answer: because they are in denial.

[Otimus]

I see very few people deny that. What most people seem to debate is it being a good or bad thing. (In my opinion, at least 99% of it is a good thing.)

[Deja Thoris]

It's how you package the statement. Let me give 2 examples for clarification

"We've simplified some aspects because they became too complex through the years"

or

"GG Blizz u dumb game down and cater for teh bads and casualz!"


I do believe they are trying to simplify certain things but I don't believe for example the attempt to remove button bloat is overtly dumbing things down.

[thebelltolleth]

Basically so they don't have to admit they are playing a game that, for the most part, 5-6 years old children could adequately play (save for most raiding).

[Darsithis]

I don't know what you're referring to. I don't think anyone can deny that Blizzard has simplified a great deal of mechanics to the game. Gone is MP5, Spell Heal, Spell Damage, resistances, spell type damage, ArP, hit, and expertise. Gear is far more straight-forward than it ever has been. Other aspects of the game have increased in complexity, of course (heroic raid modes, challenge modes, raiding in general, PvP) but the game itself is definitely not what it was in terms of complexity.

[Blufossa]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/09/18/wo...blizzard-says/

"So we are always trying to simplify the game, while at the same time add new things so that the total complexity does not get completely out of control. And you could already argue that the complexity of WoW is already huge. That can be overwhelming to new people coming in."

And yet when anybody talks about the game becoming progressively more and more simplified people get agitated and deny that's happening, even when the lead developer is saying that's actually what they try to do.

Simplifying it to a point. You even quoted it.

They didn't want spells getting out of control again. I'm with them on it, minus the removal of SS from BM Hunters.

[Darsithis]

Basically so they don't have to admit they are playing a game that, for the most part, 5-6 years old children could adequately play (save for most raiding).

Your hyperbole is 1000000000000000000000000 times inaccurate (huehue). A 5 or 6 year old could...possibly get to level 50? 60? But after that they'd probably start to struggle and stop. Besides a short attention span and lack of long-term interest in any one thing it's much more difficult at that age to comprehend abstract ideas.

[laughtrey]

Some would say that simplicity and depth aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Chess isn't that complicated, but you wouldn't ever call it simple or easy either.


A little off-topic, the article is funny. I thought I was reading one from 2006, when they said the same thing about annual expansions.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/bli.../1100-6156502/

I'll believe it when I see it.

[cptaylor38]

Basically so they don't have to admit they are playing a game that, for the most part, 5-6 years old children could adequately play (save for most raiding).

Pretty much. It's sad when you're in your mid 20's and realizing you're playing a game that is most likely filled with nothing but 12-14 year olds and a few people here and there above that range. And even some that are 8 years old.

Especially when you step back and realize that the person arguing with you about nothing is more than likely some snide little 12 year old.

It's always nice to see people that are obviously older though. Especially in dungeon groups or raids, and their grammar is perfect. They're not argumentative, and you can just tell from context clues or the things they say that they are older and much more mature.

It's also nice to not see the, "I'M SO HIGH. I'M SO DRUNK. FART PENIS FART BOOBS."

Not exactly like that, but still.

And to the other person talking about dumbing down the game for casuals, I think it's like he said. If you call a bunch of people "casuals" as somekind of elitist derogatory term towards people that have lives outside of World of Warcraft, while saying that they are making the game simpler specifically for them.. it's easy to get offended.

I don't mind the simplicity, but it is difficult getting used to having such fewer spells in my rotation on some classes. It doesn't seem like a great idea to get rid of choice in a video game, but it's kind of bittersweet when you realize that getting rid of some of that choice made things a whole lot easier. The class design seems better from what I've seen on the ptr, with the exception of the new Balance druid eclipse mechanic which I've never been a big fan of to begin with. Warrior and the new shaman echo are a little hard to get used to as well, but all in all they seem simpler but more fluid.

[Deleted]

I see very few people deny that. What most people seem to debate is it being a good or bad thing. (In my opinion, at least 99% of it is a good thing.)

Whereas i see plenty of people denying this on these forums..

Simplification is evident all over Wow... homogenisation of the classes, reduction of classes abilities, talent tree simplification, linear questing, truncating dungeons, the list goes on.

Some people see these changes as good steps forward and others see these changes as killing the immersion and losing the RPG element of Wow.

[cptaylor38]

Your hyperbole is 1000000000000000000000000 times inaccurate (huehue). A 5 or 6 year old could...possibly get to level 50? 60? But after that they'd probably start to struggle and stop. Besides a short attention span and lack of long-term interest in any one thing it's much more difficult at that age to comprehend abstract ideas.

Don't necessarily agree with you there. I've seen a 5 year old play Farmville for hours, and while some of the abstract ideas aren't necessarily clicking, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few here and there that did just fine.

But I suppose there are always exceptions.

[Darsithis]

Don't necessarily agree with you there. I've seen a 5 year old play Farmville for hours, and while some of the abstract ideas aren't necessarily clicking, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few here and there that did just fine.

But I suppose there are always exceptions.

How is Farmville even close to the complexity of World of Warcraft? WoW might not be quite the same complexity it was back in 2005, but it's hardly Farmville.

[Packing an i5]

because simplifying is being used in a negative way to describe the changing game so blizzard fanboys need to deny its happening at all rather than be smart and try to argue that simple is better.

[Karnak]

How is Farmville even close to the complexity of World of Warcraft? WoW might not be quite the same complexity it was back in 2005, but it's hardly Farmville.

WoW is vastly more complex now than it was in 2005 and if you don't think so you weren't playing in 2005 or you need to take off the rose colored glasses.

Mage "rotation" in MC and BWL:
Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt

[RoKPaNda]

When Blizzard says simplifying it takes an entirely different meaning than when someone is whining about simplifying the game. In the community, for some reason, simple has a negative connotation. Probably from all of the "LULZ TEH DUMS TEH GAEM DOWN!" posts we've seen over the years. Like when I commented on how League of Legends (for example) is mechanically a very simple game flipped their shit even though I wasn't implying anything bad about the game.

WoW is vastly more complex now than it was in 2005 and if you don't think so you weren't playing in 2005 or you need to take off the rose colored glasses.

Mage "rotation" in MC and BWL:
Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt Frostbolt

Yeah, mages got shafted in Molten Core, it wasn't a very interactive class at all at that point. Certain aspects of WoW are vastly more complex yes, and others have been simplified.

[zoomgpally]

It's how you package the statement. Let me give 2 examples for clarification

"We've simplified some aspects because they became too complex through the years"

or

"GG Blizz u dumb game down and cater for teh bads and casualz!"


I do believe they are trying to simplify certain things but I don't believe for example the attempt to remove button bloat is overtly dumbing things down.

This.
They are making stuff easy to learn, not faceroll to master

- - - Updated - - -

I don't know what you're referring to. I don't think anyone can deny that Blizzard has simplified a great deal of mechanics to the game. Gone is MP5, Spell Heal, Spell Damage, resistances, spell type damage, ArP, hit, and expertise. Gear is far more straight-forward than it ever has been. Other aspects of the game have increased in complexity, of course (heroic raid modes, challenge modes, raiding in general, PvP) but the game itself is definitely not what it was in terms of complexity.

Many of those were simply quality of life improvements.
The was nothing "complex" about an item tooltip saying "this item is only useful for healers"(or opposite for spell damage)
Resistances were just grinds.
Hit and expertise were just mindless cap this and that then get no more
mp5 was removed because it would be completely useless when they wanted spirit to be the regen stat
ArP and defense rating were removed because they were unable to explain how they worked, defense rating also because it was a stat that needed to be capped like hit/exp
School damage just reduced the number of specs that could use x item

Edit: seems all of them were quality of life improvements

[cptaylor38]

How is Farmville even close to the complexity of World of Warcraft? WoW might not be quite the same complexity it was back in 2005, but it's hardly Farmville.

There's still a lot of micro-management involved. It's not like there's that much complexity in WoW in the end either. You have to pay attention to health meters, mana meters, and press buttons to perform a spell or ability. Once you've memorized the abilities it isn't like it's rocket science. I didn't say they were playing well, but I don't think it's beyond the comprehension of a child to know what action to perform or to know what keys to press on a keyboard. Raiding heroic Garrosh? Being good at pvp? Probably not. But performing the basic functions of a class in or out of a proper rotation, I don't see why they couldn't. Moving? Don't see why not.

I suppose the biggest thing that sets them apart is the ability to counter another player, having good twitch reflexes, and having to press more buttons.

The Farmville was mostly in relation to attention span, though.

Again, I'm not saying EVERY CHILD CAN DO THIS. I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't above the level of understanding for quite a few in that age group. Especially as time progresses and society has shifted more towards the reliance on technology. You see 5 and 6 year olds with their own smart phones now and they know how to use them. I don't see why a video game would be out of the question.

[Karnak]

Certain aspects of WoW are vastly more complex yes, and others have been simplified.

Name some significant systems that were more complex in Vanilla than they are now.


Elemental Shaman rotation in BC:

Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Heroism/Bloodlust Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt Lighting Bolt

[zoomgpally]

because simplifying is being used in a negative way to describe the changing game so blizzard fanboys need to deny its happening at all rather than be smart and try to argue that simple is better.

Or because people use "easier to get started" as their number 1 argument for "heroic bosses are faceroll"