Shuriken Toss

[Mibzo]

Hello fellow Rogues!

The last couple of days I've been grinding Steamwheedle Cartel rep and I used Shuriken Toss to make it more smooth. But, I was wondering what the purpose of this talent is? I can't think of any situations where it would be better to take Shuriken Toss over Anticipation.

Am I the only one that thinks it's weird to put it as a talent?

[Effbee]

I don't profess to be a good Rogue, but with my very laid back guild, I just find ST good for mobility, because I can still build CP and do damage when there is a lot of movement. End of the day, Blizzard don't just create talents and glyphs etc for the top end, they create them for everyone. So whereas in progression raiding ST might not be the best option, for soloing, small group content, and more informal raiding, it is a perfectly good choice in my eyes

[Zantos]

I can see it being good for maybe a PvP rogue. PvE Wise, it Might have a use on a few fights like Thok, But more then likely it doesn't. Honestly Anticipation seems to be the obviously best choice for PvE.

Its that way for all classes though. They seem to have a talent or two that's just not good.

[Ryme]

They killed it when it early on in MoP for most PvE scenarios, it's a fun tool to endlessly kite with BoS, but ultimately will probably never see use in progression PvE.

[lolpve]

Just because a talent isn't great in endgame raiding doesn't mean it is useless. There is a bad attitude on this site and EJ whereby every talent needs to have a raiding use which is nonsense. ST is very useful when farming, running old dungeons, certain duels, and pretty much anything that doesn't allow much CP generation single target.

I'd actually argue that anticipation is the worst designed talent on that tier since it is extremely boring and mandatory in raiding. It should be made baseline and something interesting put in its place.

[Tziva]

I really like the talent but, yeah, because it competes with Anticipation, I never take it. But it's fun to play around with for kiting, and there have been very rare situational uses. I think I used it a couple times in Brawler's Guild. That's about it.

I wish they'd just make Anticipation baseline

Just because a talent isn't great in endgame raiding doesn't mean it is useless. There is a bad attitude on this site and EJ whereby every talent needs to have a raiding use which is nonsense. ST is very useful when farming, running old dungeons, certain duels, and pretty much anything that doesn't allow much CP generation single target.

I completely agree in general principle that just because something isn't useful in raiding doesn't mean it's useless. I'm totally cool with talents that are situationally useful, but that is provided that they are the best option when in those specific situations and that a player actually encounters those specific situations. But unfortunately, I don't think ST does that. MfD or Anticipation is still more useful on average than ST even outside of progression raiding. Sure, you can get away with using it farming old content or playing solo, but it still doesn't really excel past its alternatives even there.

[Kael]

ST's use in PvE is pretty much relegated to solo content (both kiting hard content that can be kited and killing low mobs all over the place). I don't think it's useless, but I'd like to see it either baseline or a real "choice" compared to (or after the baseline/removal of) anticipation when it comes to organized PvE. In raids, if we were doing the blind sonar dragon that's no longer relevant, it might have seen real raid use. Can't speak to PvP, but I imagine there are still some scenarios where it's useful. Maybe.

[ophion1990]

Soloing whaleshark.

[Tziva]

ST's use in PvE is pretty much relegated to solo content (both kiting hard content that can be kited and killing low mobs all over the place). I don't think it's useless, but I'd like to see it either baseline or a real "choice" compared to (or after the baseline/removal of) anticipation when it comes to organized PvE. In raids, if we were doing the blind sonar dragon that's no longer relevant, it might have seen real raid use. Can't speak to PvP, but I imagine there are still some scenarios where it's useful. Maybe.

I still think MfD, or even Anticipation-with-Redirect-glyph, is stronger even in solo Pve and PvP. But yeah, things that need kited are good with ST. Although even there, sometimes I find that spamming FoK with crippling is more DPS, even on a solo mob (I guess maybe because its multidirectional). But even then, how often do we ever encounter things we need to kite nowadays?

[zoomgpally]

Hello fellow Rogues!

The last couple of days I've been grinding Steamwheedle Cartel rep and I used Shuriken Toss to make it more smooth. But, I was wondering what the purpose of this talent is? I can't think of any situations where it would be better to take Shuriken Toss over Anticipation.

Am I the only one that thinks it's weird to put it as a talent?

Realistic situations this tier/expansion, no

Shuriken Toss would be far better than anticipation for a fight where you can't stay on target for whatever reason.
Most common example would be air phase of all those dragon fights.

I think a better alternative would be "use x energy to make all your attacks 30 yard range for y seconds."
Play like sweeping strikes, just for ranged instead of cleave.

- - - Updated - - -

I still think MfD, or even Anticipation-with-Redirect-glyph, is stronger even in solo Pve and PvP. But yeah, things that need kited are good with ST. Although even there, sometimes I find that spamming FoK with crippling is more DPS, even on a solo mob (I guess maybe because its multidirectional). But even then, how often do we ever encounter things we need to kite nowadays?

And how often do people call for a rogue to kite when so many classes can do it much better?
DKs and hunters can both have practically passive slows, DKs can even go blood presence to make sure nobody pulls aggro.

[Kael]

I still think MfD, or even Anticipation-with-Redirect-glyph, is stronger even in solo Pve and PvP. But yeah, things that need kited are good with ST. Although even there, sometimes I find that spamming FoK with crippling is more DPS, even on a solo mob (I guess maybe because its multidirectional). But even then, how often do we ever encounter things we need to kite nowadays?

Not disagreeing with any part of this, although I haven't tested the FoK-while-running-away strat. If you're not autoing, try facing sideways and strafing. You get the front panel as an attack direction, and you're moving sideways. iirc the limitation is something like running 179 degrees away from what you're attacking. When I said kiting, I mostly meant things not really intended to be solo'd (like dungeon bosses). As for low mobs, I meant things you can 1-shot and probably don't want to run up to. ST and "tab-target" works fine with AoE loot now.

[Hitei]

Only situation I've found where ST is the superior talent is when you are farming mobs (i.e. potion of luck farming) and need to tag a bunch of things that are out of range, because you can hit ST and then just right click on the mobs to pull them.

Just because a talent isn't great in endgame raiding doesn't mean it is useless. There is a bad attitude on this site and EJ whereby every talent needs to have a raiding use which is nonsense. ST is very useful when farming, running old dungeons, certain duels, and pretty much anything that doesn't allow much CP generation single target.

I'd actually argue that anticipation is the worst designed talent on that tier since it is extremely boring and mandatory in raiding. It should be made baseline and something interesting put in its place.

This is true, but when talents are only good in specific situations, and then tier only has one viable talent per area of gameplay (solo, PvE, PvP) then you entirely defeat the purpose of having talents, which is choice. At that point you might as well have a single button that turns into something based on where you are. The attitude that something like ST should be great in endgame raiding comes from the fact that if it isn't you have absolutely no choice in what talent to take as a raider--Which is the case currently, where 90%+ of rogues from all three specs take anticipation for raiding on the vast majority of encounters.

Talents don't need to be amazing in every area, but you should ideally have AT LEAST two talents per tier that are viable for any given area of gameplay, so that you can actually make a choice instead of be stuck between a clearly vastly superior option and a gimmick.

[Tziva]

If you're not autoing, try facing sideways and strafing. You get the front panel as an attack direction, and you're moving sideways. iirc the limitation is something like running 179 degrees away from what you're attacking.

Yeah, that's typical -- I use strafe often -- but there are situations (maybe where you need to weave around things, or make a lot of turns, or maybe the place you need to go is directly behind you) where keyboard movement isn't always going to result in the most efficient pathing. In those cases, it's often nice to just spam FoK without regard to how you're facing. If nothing else, it works, so why not just keep your superior CP-management talent without swapping talents just to have maybe marginally more DPS?

When I said kiting, I mostly meant things not really intended to be solo'd (like dungeon bosses). As for low mobs, I meant things you can 1-shot and probably don't want to run up to. ST and "tab-target" works fine with AoE loot now.

I guess. I would still likely just run up and FoK once to collect loot, so I can at least redirect my CPs between packs.

[blackblade]

Do agree that it's in a bad-spot, talent-wise. would do well in the 'gap-closer' section alongside burst of speed and shadowstep.

[Skarzog]

Just because a talent isn't great in endgame raiding doesn't mean it is useless. There is a bad attitude on this site and EJ whereby every talent needs to have a raiding use which is nonsense. ST is very useful when farming, running old dungeons, certain duels, and pretty much anything that doesn't allow much CP generation single target.

I'd actually argue that anticipation is the worst designed talent on that tier since it is extremely boring and mandatory in raiding. It should be made baseline and something interesting put in its place.

I actually don't agree with that. Blizzard are the ones that decided to make raiding the focus of this game. Alot of effort goes into designing new raids and getting players of all experience and ability into raids. We now have 4 different difficulties of raids just to ensure everyone finds some leveling of raiding they are comfortable with. Heck, the even numbered patches are even named after the raid like "Patch 5.4 Siege of Orgrimmar"

So I don't know if I necessarily agree that not every talent needs to be raid viable. Its not even an elitist attitude, its just that it does not make sense and kind of contradicts the major focus of the game.

Now as far as ST goes, the issue with this talent is that it assumes you cannot directly attack your target in melee for a certain period of time. Sure even in raids I sometimes have to go out of range of my target but if it is for more than a few seconds I am probably not doing my job correctly. Even in Pvp if you are constantly out of range of your target to the point where ST begins to look like a good idea, you should probably reconsider what you are doing. The whole purpose of Rogue is to stay in melee range as much as possible, ST contradicts that.

I'm not even saying ST is a bad ability. Having something I could use during that short period I might find myself off my target sounds great. But if I have to chose between a talent I can utilize while I'm on my target or a talent I can only utilize while I'm off my target, ST will lose each time.

Now if they had like a ranged only row with talents like ST and Deadly Throw, then I could see myself picking up ST.

[dak1]

I think ST is a good talent, just not on a tier with MfD and Anticipation. It actually drives me crazy sometimes that we don't have any kind of ranged attack (or Warrior mobility).

It would actually match up must better against something like Death from Above and a heavily modified Deadly Throw as a quasi ranged-dps tier.

The only things I've actually used it for in MoP are the whale shark (from Cata) and messing with newbie mages in PvP (ST+DT can really mess with a bad mage, especially when you mix in a smoke bomb and vanish/subterfuge or two to break their targeting.

[Packing an i5]

I used ST long ago for pvp as mutilate until it was changed then nerfed into uselessness now I only use marked for death. I have never used anticipation but I dont do pve. MFD is the best pvp oriented talent on that tier its very versatile.

[willtron]

I remember in 5.2, when ST was like, 20 energy.

Playing arena and beating ranged by spamming ST/DT and kiting melee was fun.

Lest we forget, RIP ST/DT Rogue.

[Sativ]

I remember in 5.2, when ST was like, 20 energy.

Playing arena and beating ranged by spamming ST/DT and kiting melee was fun.

Lest we forget, RIP ST/DT Rogue.

I'll never forget a game against two Glad's from our realm in 3s.

I DT interrupt poly he starts casting Ring, I kick ring in melee range. His priest grips him away and he starts casting poly once he's off lock out~ Interrupt again with Deadly throw- he just stopped moving for like 10 seconds.

I could feel the frustration.