Opinions welcome, combat 2x slow vs dagger OH

[lifteez]

Simply would like to get some opinions on 2 slows vs dagger offhand, if you are going to use numbers as a reason, I'd preferably like to hear it from heroic geared players. I am currently rocking 2 HWF swords off spoils(also human), I haven't upgraded a dagger yet simply because I love seeing the dmg off of killing spree. I know it's a minor difference either way dps wise overall.

So tell me rogues, what do you use and why?

[Feali]

The 4pc really favors 2 slow weapons but it's pretty small. I just go with 2 slow because it looks better to be honest.

[jtstormrage]

2 x slow does more damage during KS.

1 x slow + 1 x fast does more poison damage.

2 x slow = slightly higher overall (1%) if you can use KS on CD.

If not, they are the same.

I think that's right.

However, as always, use the highest DPS weapons you have, irrespective of speed.

[Cranial]

The biggest thing is the weapon dps. Use the one with the higher ilvl.
If they are both the same, personally I'd use the dagger, cause the love the dagger t-mog I have,

[PessimiStick]

They're close enough that it doesn't matter, especially since you overgear the fuck out of the content. I use slow/slow, personally.

[lifteez]

I've been holding onto my BC ethereal swords like the Continuum Blade, for dear life. She's just so sparkly.. Sword offhand it is. But I wonder what the affects of a dagger offhand are on real situation. The way I see it, dagger offhand smooths out your dps range, say from trinkets proccing at worst time vs best time(KS). If trinkets proc and your CDs are 20/30 sec away, you don't lose as much. Where as for 2x slow, if I keep getting amazing trinket procs right as I go to killing spree, then I'd gain more dps possibly than dagger offhand would. But I'd loose more dps than dagger offhand, if I kept getting trinket procs without killing sprees.

So I guess this is sloppily written, but I hope someone could see what I'm saying and let me know their thoughts on it. Fast OH = more consistent pull to pull, slow OH = more extreme negative/positive dps fight to fight

[Kael]

So I guess this is sloppily written, but I hope someone could see what I'm saying and let me know their thoughts on it. Fast OH = more consistent pull to pull, slow OH = more extreme negative/positive dps fight to fight

jtstormrage really covered it if you're trying to pull the absolute max. Anytime you can KS freely, slow OH wins out. Otherwise, no one cares. After that, it's transmog. You're not going to see significant delta between the deltas of fights with a dagger vs. fights with a slow OH unless you play differently - it's not like you hit 1 time during KS with a slow weapon and KS 3 times a fight.

[Naiattavain]

its a matter of common sense which is rare. rogues use poison with a fast offhand; applies poison at a faster rate. better then a one handed offhand. it was same in wrath with combat nothing has changed.

[Kael]

its a matter of common sense which is rare. rogues use poison with a fast offhand; applies poison at a faster rate. better then a one handed offhand. it was same in wrath with combat nothing has changed.

This is just not the case in MoP (especially this tier). Damage was rebalanced in some key combat passives which caused a slow OH (outside of KS) to be much less punished, and between the current set bonuses and the inherent gain of offhand weapon damage to KS, a slow offhand does, in fact, pull ahead by a margin. In spite of having less poison damage.

[lifteez]

its a matter of common sense which is rare. rogues use poison with a fast offhand; applies poison at a faster rate. better then a one handed offhand. it was same in wrath with combat nothing has changed.

When a offhand has more mechanics that just offhand swings and poison procs, it is no longer a black and white line. Anyhow, 2 slows is better dps with 4 set especially, so you are wrong, although I am not sure what exactly you said, I am guessing you said, "fast OH and it has been like that since wrath."The question was two fold I had asked in this thread, who uses what, and why. second, I Possed a question, since I did not have numbers, but I wondered what the variance of fight to fight damage was between a slow off hand a fast off. kael answered that question.

Thanks for everyone's time who humored me

[Naiattavain]

im sorry you take offense to my opinion-- though thats your problem.

[Feali]

im sorry you take offense to my opinion-- though thats your problem.

Calls it common sense. Gets criticized. Calls it opinion.
Yea, ok.

[PessimiStick]

im sorry you take offense to my opinion-- though thats your problem.

No one is taking offense, you're just objectively wrong.

[DakonBlackblade]

im sorry you take offense to my opinion-- though thats your problem.

Its not an opinions, its math. It has changed since Wrath, Slow/Slow is better now, if your opinion is that it isnt youre wrong cause math is not subjective. End.

[Naiattavain]

back in wrath: because i love taking you guys back in time. instant was on mainhand and deadly was offhand. throwing had crippling, mind numbing or wound. pve side of things. for pvp you would replace instant with wound on main-hand and deadly as off-hand. why instant on main hand? i think this was because that when it proc that it was like hitting twice with mainhand syngersided with combat it was like hitting 3 times with main gouch. off hand because deadly poison always had a low application rate so the faster your offhand was - dagger the better consistency of application you had to keep the 5 stacks of deadly debuff on target. this was at the end of the expansion when they introduced mastery as a stat.

its different now your correct in that sense but if deadly poison has a 30% chance to apply that's 4 out of 10 swings? if the application was consistently hitting the 30% application chance. id rather take a dagger as offhand to utilise my poison application because rogues perk is poison. thats the idea. i really don't know what your guys problem is thats the common sense. if you use two one-handed weapons for combat your not going to get the poison application benefit from a fast offhand. so your poison application as combat would be lesser for doing that. rogues don't have a choice to use 3-4 poisons anymore. just lethal and non-lethal. its still correct today.

Kael - "by a margin" with killing spree. and two one handed weapons for combat..

[Mormolyce]

What I take away from all of this is that the differential is now small enough to not matter and you can use whichever weapons you have/prefer.

Two slow weapons looks cooler, on the other hand sword + main gauche is more realistic :P

[Naiattavain]

reply to mormolyce; yes! thank god you have a brain. the rogue has always had shitty damage that you had to constantly trial and error to get your damage optimal. i found that fast dagger was applicable for the benefit of poison application back then. should still be relative unless poison proc chance was changed to 100% every hit.

[Sesshou]

back in wrath: because i love taking you guys back in time. instant was on mainhand and deadly was offhand. throwing had crippling, mind numbing or wound. pve side of things. for pvp you would replace instant with wound on main-hand and deadly as off-hand. why instant on main hand? i think this was because that when it proc that it was like hitting twice with mainhand syngersided with combat it was like hitting 3 times with main gouch. off hand because deadly poison always had a low application rate so the faster your offhand was - dagger the better consistency of application you had to keep the 5 stacks of deadly debuff on target. this was at the end of the expansion when they introduced mastery as a stat.

its different now your correct in that sense but if deadly poison has a 30% chance to apply that's 4 out of 10 swings? if the application was consistently hitting the 30% application chance. id rather take a dagger as offhand to utilise my poison application because rogues perk is poison. thats the idea. i really don't know what your guys problem is thats the common sense. if you use two one-handed weapons for combat your not going to get the poison application benefit from a fast offhand. so your poison application as combat would be lesser for doing that. rogues don't have a choice to use 3-4 poisons anymore. just lethal and non-lethal. its still correct today.

Kael - "by a margin" with killing spree. and two one handed weapons for combat..

Wtf did I just read... this is the most unintelligent garbage I've read in quite a while. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. And then in addition to the stuff you clearly don't know what you're talking about, there is stuff which doesn't even make any damn sense.

Why instant on MH in wrath? I guess I will tell you because you obviously don't know. Instant's proc rate was normalized so you would get the same number of procs from auto attacks regardless of weapon speed, but it used that same proc rate for specials which for combat's slow main hand was quite high so this resulted in more poison procs than putting instant on OH. Your explanation is clearly wrong, but it also doesn't even make any sense... no idea wtf that was suppose to mean. That is also assuming you mean late wrath as combat was using wound on MH before the DP change.

Mastery wasn't added in until Cata. The patch that added mastery was also the patch that added Hyjal and people were bugging into it and killing things.

30% is 3 out of 10 swings. You complain about lack of common sense... well I'm complaining about your lack of the ability to do elementary school math.

What do you mean "if you use two one-handed weapons?" Rogues always use 2 one handed weapons. I guess except if you don't have a weapon equipped, but since you are the champion of common sense, I'm going to assume that you have the common sense to not play without a weapon(s) equipped.

Poison proc rates are A perk for fast OH. KS damage is A perk for slow OH. Common sense would tell you to find out how much damage each perk gives. Doing so would tell you that with the current tier bonus, the perk for slow OH wins.

[DakonBlackblade]

What I take away from all of this is that the differential is now small enough to not matter and you can use whichever weapons you have/prefer.

Two slow weapons looks cooler, on the other hand sword + main gauche is more realistic :P

The diference is realy not that small, its quite noticeable actualy, but suit yourself.

[Deleted]

Had HC heirloom dagger off-hand for a long time, switched to a HC seismic bore, immediately noticed my damage go up considerably. I guess people who are saying there isn't much of a difference don't use their KS at the right time.