Why demo and destro need a fel flame type spell

[PickleballAce]

Ok then, look at moonkins in WoD. They're in practically the same position.

Our contention has never been with Balance mobility, it's about Hunters and Fire/Frost Mages who are leaving the rest of us behind. I would be less concerned with how Warlocks are on old content and more concerned about the still-remaining mobility gap between ranged specs.

Between Balance, Affliction, Demonology and Destruction, only one of those specs has unconditional and spammable damage on the move.

Boomkin are free to Moonfire spam all day and Starsurge charges can bank safely up to twice.

Affliction can....refresh two DoTs, neither of which do damage on application and are thus practically pointless to spam.

Demonology can refresh Corruption which does no direct damage or spend Fury on Doom and Touch of Chaos (the latter of which is often a waste of Fury). Nothing spammable.

Destruction has Rain of Fire every six seconds and Conflag that you can safely bank once. Nothing spammable.

KJC is really the only thing propping all of our specs up in WoD, but it comes at the opportunity cost of Archimonde's Darkness....which is arguably stronger than Live KJC, let alone WoD KJC.

We have some options but the rest of them are tied up in things like resources, requiring melee range, or come at a hefty opportunity cost. This is why "unconditional" is a really attractive thing.

[Jarob22]

Our contention has never been with Balance mobility, it's about Hunters and Fire/Frost Mages who are leaving the rest of us behind. I would be less concerned with how Warlocks are on old content and more concerned about the still-remaining mobility gap between ranged specs.

Between Balance, Affliction, Demonology and Destruction, only one of those specs has unconditional and spammable damage on the move.

Balance are free to Moonfire spam and Starsurge charges you can bank safely up to twice.

Affliction can....refresh two DoTs, neither of which do damage on application.

Demonology can refresh Corruption or spend Fury on Doom and Touch of Chaos (the latter of which is often a waste of Fury).

Destruction has Rain of Fire every six seconds and Conflag that you can safely bank once.

KJC is really the only thing propping all of our specs up in WoD, but it comes at the opportunity cost of Archimonde's Darkness....which is arguably stronger than Live KJC, let alone WoD KJC.

Really, you're putting "moonfire spam" as a valid way to dps on the move? :| In case you didn't know, eclipse is snapshotted (yes even in WoD), so spamming moonfire would be a dps loss, as it would snapshot it at a later stage in eclipse, meaning it would lose dps.

Sure, we have starsurge procs, and you have circle teleport, portal, demonic leap and KJC/AD. I'm really not seeing the issue here.

[PickleballAce]

Really, you're putting "moonfire spam" as a valid way to dps on the move? :| In that case, so is spamming corruption - the initial cast does so little dmg it's about the same dps worth anyway.

40 percent of spellpower vs 0 percent of spellpower. Tell me which is more?

Sure, we have starsurge procs, and you have circle teleport, portal, demonic leap and KJC/AD. I'm really not seeing the issue here.

Hey if we're including movement spells that only tangentially contribute to damage then lets throw in Dash and Displacer Beast/Wild Charge.

Or how about....you can spec into Feral on mobility fights, since we're scraping the bottom of the barrel?

[Jarob22]

I edited my post, please re-read.

Sure, neither of which allow us to do what KJC does.

Lolwut, why don't you just go onto your rogue alt for mobility fights? You can't just switch specs to feral in WoD, the gear doesn't fully support it, even with main stat switching. You're just being silly now.

[Bluesftw]

i need felflame for pulling/tagging mobs and dealing with reflects, it can even do 1 dmg i dont give a shit about it really, just quality of life issues here...

[Kan]

Really, you're putting "moonfire spam" as a valid way to dps on the move? :| In case you didn't know, eclipse is snapshotted, so spamming moonfire would be a dps loss, as it would snapshot it at a later stage in eclipse, meaning it would lose dps.

Sure, we have starsurge procs, and you have circle teleport, portal, demonic leap and KJC/AD. I'm really not seeing the issue here.

Um yes ? yes we are. compared to fel flame which did 80% (in mop) spell power moonfire does 40% (wod) and did somewhere near 65-70% spellpower in MOP (the numbers fluxuated thru various changes). Compared to what fel flame WOULD be nerfed to, their spell power coefficients would be almost identical. It is a very valid comparison.


demonic leap would incur the meta cd, AD outweighs KJC and was almost the case in MOP too, even worse now in WOD since KJC was changed. portal incurs a 2min cd.

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Is there a reason you have such a problem with something that will add almost no extra dps but simply be a QoL REaddition that shouldnt have been taken away, jacob?

[Jarob22]

i need felflame for pulling/tagging mobs and dealing with reflects, it can even do 1 dmg i dont give a shit about it really, just quality of life issues here...

Yea cause a 1 dmg spell that consumes a reflect sounds really balanced lol, I don't even pvp and can tell you that sounds silly. ^^

[Kan]

It is said only elipse's effects will snapshot moonfire and your other dot not them by themselves jacob

[Jarob22]

Is there a reason you have such a problem with something that will add almost no extra dps but simply be a QoL REaddition that shouldnt have been taken away, jacob?

I've already answered this above, it's not something that fits into the focus of caster dps in WoD, which is to make meaningful decisions on when to move and how to move, and not just to spam a lower dmg spell that works whilst moving. If other classes aren't adhering to this, that's up to blizz to fix that, but this is what they've been saying for a while now.

[Kan]

Yea cause a 1 dmg spell that consumes a reflect sounds really balanced lol, I don't even pvp and can tell you that sounds silly. ^^

Please keep your posts PVE oriented, it was never complained about and even now we still consume a reflect that does 0 dmg but that one is casted and since you dont pvp as you yourself stated you have no idea the difficult casters have with situations of a melee riding our backs. keep your posts pve please, leave responses toward pvp to people who are experienced with it

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I've already answered this above, it's not something that fits into the focus of caster dps in WoD, which is to make meaningful decisions on when to move and how to move, and not just to spam a lower dmg spell that works whilst moving. If other classes aren't adhering to this, that's up to blizz to fix that, but this is what they've been saying for a while now.

Then the initial impact damage of moonfire, and many other classes movement dps should be removed to fit into your "ideal image"

[Jarob22]

Then the initial impact damage of moonfire, and many other classes movement dps should be removed to fit into your "ideal image"

Nobody is going to be spamming moonfire, it would be a dps loss and a waste of time.

[PickleballAce]

In case you didn't know, eclipse is snapshotted (yes even in WoD), so spamming moonfire would be a dps loss, as it would snapshot it at a later stage in eclipse, meaning it would lose dps.

Only the initial damage of Moonfire/Sunfire (the direct damage portion) gains a "snapshot" benefit from reaching 100 Energy.

Upon reaching 100 Lunar Energy, the next Moonfire deals 100% additional initial damage.

Upon reaching 100 Solar Energy, the next Sunfire deals 100% additional initial damage.

The DoT portion updates dynamically.

The damage of damage-over-time effects changes dynamically as Eclipse changes.

These are from the Beta patch notes. If the DoT portion of Moonfire is still snapshotting, that's not working as intended or there is some disparity between what the Devs are intending and what Rygarius has previously typed up.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/134...-19-2014#druid

[Kan]

Only the initial damage of Moonfire/Sunfire (the direct damage portion) gains a benefit from reaching 100 Energy.
The DoT portion updates dynamically.
These are from the Beta patch notes. If the DoT portion of Moonfire is still snapshotting, that's not working as intended.

^This^
i feel like youre just trying to be unnecessary with your want for fel flame to be removed while allowing other ranged dps to retain their mobility. the only class you have listed so far that you say is just as movement stifled is boomkin but they themselves have a "Fel flame" of their own baked into their rotation and normal dots. You're targetting the wrong class if you are trying to push for this ideal image you are shooting for.

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Nobody is going to be spamming moonfire, it would be a dps loss and a waste of time.

also.. so youre telling me on parts where you have no procs and no instants you DONT use moonfire and you just walk to Point A to Point B? ... just stop.

[Jarob22]

also.. so youre telling me on parts where you have no procs and no instants you DONT use moonfire and you just walk to Point A to Point B? ... just stop.

I would be saving my procs and movement spells until I needed to move, and not rely on shitty dps spells that will lower my dps.

[Santoisms]

Sound and VERY constructive response. im sure the people here will take your thoughts under consideration. Anyone else have opinions to put in?
Preferably not anything as thorough as this post?

I don't think Demonology needs one because you aren't using ToC at all anymore you cannot afford the Fury cost. My understanding is use ToC + DoTs on the move. As for Destruction, it DEFINITELY needs something on the move, that is the major issue that the spec has atm in terms of PvE sustained damage.

[fguru482]

I've already answered this above, it's not something that fits into the focus of caster dps in WoD, which is to make meaningful decisions on when to move and how to move, and not just to spam a lower dmg spell that works whilst moving. If other classes aren't adhering to this, that's up to blizz to fix that, but this is what they've been saying for a while now.

You guys arent really grasping the full concept behind fel flame.

You can use it to kill totems
You can use it when you are knocked in the air on a boss
You can use it while kiting adds
You can use it while kiting a boss that is below 1% health
You can use it when getting knocked back
You can use it when you stutter step
You can use it when you need just a little ember and a proc is falling off and it enables you to get off a cb in the proc that wouldnt have happnd with incinerate
You can use it in demo while moving and there are no procs up for meta


Its more than just a spell to use on the move. Its a strategic spell that should only be used a few times but when used properly it helps your dps slightly and i love it for this reason


Ty and im glad i could enlighten you to what it means to min max

[ombramo]

You're a destro lock, in an arena, warrior is training you. He pops spell reflect. What do you do?


In WoD, looks like you either have to eat your own fucking conflagrate or just stand there and wait for spell reflect to run out.

[Nhiosis]

You're a destro lock, in an arena, warrior is training you. He pops spell reflect. What do you do?


In WoD, looks like you either have to eat your own fucking conflagrate or just stand there and wait for spell reflect to run out.

This. Destro is SO fucked in pvp between the loss of fel flame and backlash procs that I'm not sure it'll be even close to viable anymore. Let's not forget the loss of twilight ward, health funnel, and the new shit-tastic KJC as well.

Even fucking seduce got a 30 second cooldown. I guess drakedog fanboys were destroying BGs too much?

[Phoenexis]

Yea cause a 1 dmg spell that consumes a reflect sounds really balanced lol, I don't even pvp and can tell you that sounds silly. ^^

I don't even pvp

Hence why you have no clue why Fel Flame is so valuable. "Nobody will Moonfire spam, it's a DPS loss". HAve you SEEN Boomkin gameplay for the past 2 expansions? It's been nothing BUT Moonfire Spam with Insect Swarm application along with instant Starsurge procs. Moonfire is such a god ability to spam for them that they do not take the time to cast anything else most of the time for damage.

If you don't think warlocks need Fel Flame, then you don't PvP. Not only is it a basic and essential tool that every class has access to in a way, but it also makes the gameplay feel much less dull in PvP. Whenever I'm running away from melee I feel absolutely ridiculous doing nothing but spamming corruption while hopping as Demo.

[Grizelda]

I have to admit I really thought that the devs would understand by this point.