the Weakness of modern Western civilization

[jugzilla]

The western powers don't make enough babies anymore.

The huge amounts of immigration into the western powers comes at a heavy cost. The immigrants change us as much as we change them. And that's ok for me as an American who has to put up with all these hardworking, mostly Catholic, family oriented folks from Mexico and other parts south of that. Meanwhile, poor Europe, is forced to bring their new blood from North Africa, Koran in hand.

But why are the great western powers in this situation to begin with? Surely the advanced societies of Europe and America would at least be able to continue their own existence. Did we really become too cool to breed?

The question I ask: how come western countries in the world are completely incapable of sustaining their populations.

My theory: Only the west offers cradle to grave entitlements. In the old days, Mommy and Daddy had a lot of kids, and hoped that one day, when they were old, at least ONE of their kids would take care of them when they got older. Children were the retirement plan. The Western powers set up nice comfortable systems were one could pay taxes, painlessly taken out of your paycheck, promising that when the day comes, you would be taken care of.

[Speaknoevil]

I'm going to have to stop you there.

Birth rates are rapidly rising among pretty much every human subset worldwide.

The issue is, as it has always been: ignorance.

[TheBeardedOne]

The biggest problem for western civilization is religions in our politics and greed

[Deleted]

Modern being 21st century I guess? Its kinda vague.

2008 was the kind of hit Europe never expected.While US and Asia has gone thru many crisis with relative ease, it hit us right in the ballsack.
Economy might recover eventually but the confidence is gone forever.

[jugzilla]

I'm going to have to stop you there.

Birth rates are rapidly rising among pretty much every human subset worldwide.

The issue is, as it has always been: ignorance.

I don't want to turn this into a link battle, but anyone can just do a simple search on google and see that birthrates are NOT rising in the west.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-low/?page=all

That's just presented as evidence I actually looked.

[Deleted]

yeah it's troubling, but what can be done?

[Deleted]

Birth rates are down in developed countries due to education and oppourtunities for women. In ye olde times women were expected to just stay at home and breed, now they actually have autonomy to choose. It's a wonderful thing.

[Speaknoevil]

I don't want to turn this into a link battle, but anyone can just do a simple search on google and see that birthrates are NOT rising in the west.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-low/?page=all

That's just presented as evidence I actually looked.

I direct you to Collapse by Jared Diamond, he sources everything conveniently.

[Deleted]

Let it die already. The sooner it crumbles and falls back to chaotic savagery the better.

[jugzilla]

yeah it's troubling, but what can be done?

My theory is if you do away with the socialized security nets, people will rely more on the family structure to take care of their own. I know this wont be a popular thought around here but I think thats the crux.

[Emzky]

It is because people now prioritize their careers over having kids. The society today is a very competitive one, job wise, and people taking education have to prioritize their career. Kids are an expense and a time sink, and as you already mentioned good welfare systems takes care of you when you get old. What we need are more incentives to have kids.

[Deleted]

Let's just take it easy and not jump the gun on population growths. It is less than a decade since a lot of countries had a small incline per year (>2 children per couple), and can likely turn around again.

[Speaknoevil]

It is because people now prioritize their careers over having kids. The society today is a very competitive one, job wise, and people taking education have to prioritize their career. Kids are an expense and a time sink, and as you already mentioned good welfare systems takes care of you when you get old. What we need are more incentives to have kids.

This is the opposite of what's needed.

Humanity isn't sustainable at it's current level of consumption, what's actually needed is sharp population reductions worldwide.

[Deleted]

This is the opposite of what's needed.

Humanity isn't sustainable at it's current level of consumption, what's actually needed is sharp population reductions worldwide.

factually wrong. there's enough food to support 2 times the current population. the problem is that the avaiable resources get managed poorly.

[jugzilla]

This is the opposite of what's needed.

Humanity isn't sustainable at it's current level of consumption, what's actually needed is sharp population reductions worldwide.

Those "sharp population reductions" would have to occur in China and India mostly. I don't know if they are going to go along with that.

[Kalis]

My theory is if you do away with the socialized security nets, people will rely more on the family structure to take care of their own. I know this wont be a popular thought around here but I think thats the crux.

So by taking away one of the things that made Western civilisation so successful, you'd save Western civilisation?

I see a slight flaw in your plan.

[Grummgug]

Here is the weakness of Western Civilization.

100 years ago, it was common AND RESPECTED to sacrifice experiences and fun to save money and build for the future. Back then, people understood there are always hard times coming but that it is your responsibility to overcome them by saving money for a rainy day.

Today, if you speak proudly that experiences are no big deal to you, and that saving money is important, people look at you like you have two heads. If you DON'T rack up debt, live paycheck to paycheck at low wages, and are NOT living at home with mom and dad, people think there is something wrong with you.

[XangXu]

The internet is the thing to blame for the downfall of western countries.

In many ways, the internet is just another peice of this "slow apocalypse" we are living through

[Kalis]

Today, if you speak proudly that experiences are no big deal to you, and that saving money is important, people look at you like you have two heads. If you DON'T rack up debt, live paycheck to paycheck at low wages, and are NOT living at home with mom and dad, people think there is something wrong with you.

I've never heard anyone express those sentiments.

[Speaknoevil]

factually wrong. there's enough food to support 2 times the current population. the problem is that the avaiable resources get managed poorly.

I'm not in the mood to get into an argument with someone who is ignorant on the subject matter.

Indefinite sustainability, along with continued social and technological development cannot occur without population decreases. You will be ignored until you stop pulling things out of your rear.