Spain court suspends Catalonia independence referendum. Right or wrong?

[Jackmoves]

It's the new fad, countries want to break off from the main territory "cuz pro".

There has always been a meassure of antagonism between Catalonia and the Central Government, including armed resistance by Terra Lliure(they were responsible for many bombings, they were classified as a terrorist group by many countries, not sure what to compare it to, maybe the IRA), so there is a lot of history involved(including the spanish civil war against Franco), Catalonia has always been a bit more leftist to from what I know, the local government has been left wing/social democractic for most of the 21st century, some spaniard might be more clued in, I'm just going by what my half spanish mate says(whos mom is from Torredembarra) and my own experience.

But anyways, as far as I know a referendum would be unconstitutional.

[Kalis]

That picture made me throw the water I was drinking through my nose.

Spain has Comunidades Autonomas that can make their own laws and such, they already have more independence than Scotland has with UK, people have already talk about it on this thread so there is not actually much to say about the matter. I´m going to share that picture of separatist movements with some friends becouse it´s really funny how some people in other countries see the situation of spain.

Also, don´t even compare Cataluña with Crimea.

One of the issues in the Scottish Independence threads was that (how shall I say this politely?) "certain" posters associate the word independence with throwing off the yoke of an oppressive government that doesn't give them a political voice, as that is what happened with their independence movements.

However with Scotland, Catalonia, et al., they aren't under oppressive regimes and have equal (in some cases more) political say in their respective countries as people from other regions. This means you are not only arguing against people with a limited knowledge of the situation, but also against people who are completely ignorant of the situation.

[Themius]

It's the new fad, countries want to break off from the main territory "cuz pro".

Right... this is just a fad, not like there are decades of grievances going through multiple generations or anything.

[Tierbook]

People keep talking about how the areas have their own laws and governments and are thus more or less autonomous.... what's that make the US.....

[Mihalik]

People keep talking about how the areas have their own laws and governments and are thus more or less autonomous.... what's that make the US.....

What? Your point is lost on me there.

[Geckoo]

Right... this is just a fad, not like there are decades of grievances going through multiple generations or anything.

Actually... at least in this case there isn't.

You'll be really surprised to see that the most die hard indepentists in Catalonia are the sons and grandsons of workers from other parts of Spain (mostly Andalusia) that moved to Barcelona in the 70's looking for a better life.

Historically Catalonia as well as some other regions in Spain has had more independence, but ir never was a country as Scotland... even if we go back to the Catholic monarchs it was part of the kingdom of Aragon. Not even the war of succession 300 years ago was about Catalonia being independent, it had nothing to do with it, it was a war of interest between european countries and catalonia, as well as some other regions in spain, backed the one side that would benefit them the most. And everything in the past century is simply stained by a civil war an a very long dictatorial regime.

[Tierbook]

What? Your point is lost on me there.

I just think it's odd that making your laws and electing your government means an area is autonomous.... that means that every state in the US is autonomous wouldn't it.

[Kalis]

I just think it's odd that making your laws and electing your government means an area is autonomous.... that means that every state in the US is autonomous wouldn't it.

The US States do have some autonomy, just as certain regions in other countries do.

[Picander]

After a request from the Spanish central government in Madrid, Spain's Constitutional Court on Monday suspended Catalonia's planned independence referendum. The court declared it will place the referendum on hold while it decides whether the vote scheduled for November 9 is unconstitutional. Catalonia is one of Spain's wealthiest and most industrialized regions. Spanish Prime Minister has claimed the vote is not "compatible with the Spanish constitution," and declared Monday that, "Nobody and nothing will be allowed to break up Spain." - DB Summary

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29410493

I personally believe that there is a right to self-determination, but given the can of worms that would be opened if Catalonia got it's referendum I understand how panicked the central government is.

Areas of Spain with Separatist Movements:


What do you think of situations like this? Crimea comes to mind.

This map of yours is probably the most absurd thing I've never seen in mmo-champion.

And the comparison between Spain and Crimea might be the second.

Congrats.

[Geckoo]

People keep talking about how the areas have their own laws and governments and are thus more or less autonomous.... what's that make the US.....

Different countries have different details, it's similar but at the same time very different.

Spain is a unitary state, the central governement chooses to delegate some power to the different regions.
US is in fact a federation of states, the states decided to delegate some powe to the central governement.

For example, if i'm not mistaken, you guys have same-sex marriage legalized only in some states, right? that would be impossible in Spain, since that kind of law can only be decided by the national congress. The regions power to legislate is really very limited an as in this situation, it can't go agains't the nations constitution. The autonomy system in Spain is mostly about money... i like to call it a mix betwen centralised state and federal state.

[Mihalik]

I just think it's odd that making your laws and electing your government means an area is autonomous.... that means that every state in the US is autonomous wouldn't it.

There are several types of organizational structures for governments. A government can be centrally administered like France, or it can have a federal structure like Germany.

The autonomous region system used by Spain is actually to some degree similar to the American federal system (such as the distribution of power and the electoral system that assigns more votes to smaller regions).

For example education, healthcare, local social services are run by the Autonomous Region's Government, which each have their own Parliaments/Congresses/Assemblies (depending what structure they chose to use), as well they have their own Presidents. Some even have their own official regional languages, like Catalonia with Catalan or Basque Country with Euskera. In exchange the central government is responsible for taxation and collection, defense, foreign policy, national economic policy etc.

But there is an extra layer to the Spanish autonomy system beyond the vote distribution. When the Autonomous Community system was established at the end of the Franco era, each region individually negotiated their own "contract" with the central government. These contracts were put in the Constitution (thus require a Constitutional reform to change it). Many of the contracts give special rights and privileges to the specific regions that are either based on historical traditions or on economic policies.

An example is Navarre (region) that had for centuries an exemption from having to pay Royal Taxes. This exemption was originally granted to the Kingdom of Navarre by the Crown of Castille when that absorbed it in 1515. To avoid a war Castille granted Navarre home rule which was in one form or another preserved until today. Today this is manifested in Navarre's right to set and collect it's own taxes, of which a part is later given to the Crown (Spanish Government).

Again, Europe is more complicated then the U.S and many of the institutions have evolved over longer periods of time and have a more complex structure than that of the U.S, which is fairly new, and very artificial, having been created essentially by decree (of elected representatives, but none the less by decree.)

Just look at the British House of Lords, if you wanna see European traditional politics run amok.