[6.2] Demonology Warlock Guide

[meekus]

Good read. Keep up the good work!

[DesireKT]

Its either in the wod demo or general wod thread already. I didn't do the math or Sim on how much the difference is but the concept for the idea is 1 second uptime loss per cast only becomes a DPs loss when your fight length exceeds the time between doom ticks plus 1. So with no haste doom ticks every 15 seconds therefore the only way you can lose one tick of damage is if the fight last 16 minutes.

Of course the longer the time between applying each doom the shorter the time frame for a tick loss becomes.

I'll redo and see what basic math I can do to prove one way or another but if someone can fix up an APL that just reapplies doom after it falls off it would be the easiest way to check. Assuming the Sim will correctly spawn imps on the partial tick crits just like it does in game. But the simple fact that the fight has to be 16 minutes long to lose 1 tick should be enough to assume that even if you only get one imp spawn that its a DPs increase in most fights because they won't last 16 minutes to lose that damage.

[Deleted]

Couple of things I noticed.

1) Demonbolt cooldown is actually 40s base.
2) Cataclysm doesn't scale with Mastery so using it with Dark Soul will be a waste.

Other than that, great job! I was considering switching to Mage but these forums have become a lot more positive the past few days and I'm started to get excited for WoD again.

[xskarma]

I was considering switching to Mage but these forums have become a lot more positive the past few days and I'm started to get excited for WoD again.

Warlock community is the best. The initial guide is a 1 man job (mostly) but after that it's all of us coming here with some math that this guy did, and another person that tried some Glyph under these specific circumstances and comes and shares the results. The effect hopefully is that we all participate in bringing information to this thread and discuss the merits of stuff or possibilities and the guidemaker hopefully takes it all in and adds the relevant parts to his guide so it evolves with the content and becomes a tried and true compilation of the best way to play a (in this case) Demonology Warlock.

I'm glad you are reconsidering and staying with us.

[Deleted]

Great guide, now i am even more excited for the expansion !

[striderZA]

these forums have become a lot more positive the past few days and I'm started to get excited for WoD again.

Absolutely, the warlock community seems to be moving away from the initial hatred of WoD warlock play and rerolling threads. Good to see.

[Deleted]

Question.

Seeing as there's no snapshotting anymore wouldn't it be better to fire off 3 demonbolts (assuming you have enough fury) in your opener and apply doom a little later? I'd have thought that extra demon bolt (still under all procs and cooldowns) would be worth more than the 3 or 4 dicks of doom you lose doing this?

- - - Updated - - -

I was considering switching to Mage

Same here but be strong! I think demonology is going to be fucking FUN in wod! Finally a spec that really makes you think and punishes you for getting it wrong

[striderZA]

Finally a spec that really makes you think and punishes you for getting it wrong

Much like it's been in 5.4 :P

[Deleted]

Demonology is already 'fucking fun', people just haven't bothered to give it a chance.

On the subject of DS glyph and AD, it could potentially see use at the end of a fight where you have 500 fury and 4 stacks still up (or not depending on haste) and you sneak off 1 or 2 more Demonbolts plus some Soul Fires. Mannoroths and Demonbolt are not compatible anyway, but KJC could prove extremely useful.

[Berthold]

great guide. Just a small heads up for demo analysis based on simulationCraft. The spell data for t17 4pc, i.e., inner demon is still broken in the client files. This means the current simulated benefit of this set bonus is 0 dps.

[Deleted]

Much like it's been in 5.4 :P

Yeh but only worth playing on two fights

- - - Updated - - -

Demonology is already 'fucking fun', people just haven't bothered to give it a chance.

On the subject of DS glyph and AD, it could potentially see use at the end of a fight where you have 500 fury and 4 stacks still up (or not depending on haste) and you sneak off 1 or 2 more Demonbolts plus some Soul Fires. Mannoroths and Demonbolt are not compatible anyway, but KJC could prove extremely useful.

No but having the option of mannaroth for snap aoe where there's not enough to warrant running cataclysm would be nice in my mind.

[Woz]

1) Demonbolt cooldown is actually 40s base.
2) Cataclysm doesn't scale with Mastery so using it with Dark Soul will be a waste.

Fixed accordingly (that's what I get for not proofreading old iterations).

Question.

Seeing as there's no snapshotting anymore wouldn't it be better to fire off 3 demonbolts (assuming you have enough fury) in your opener and apply doom a little later? I'd have thought that extra demon bolt (still under all procs and cooldowns) would be worth more than the 3 or 4 dicks of doom you lose doing this?

There isn't enough DF in your opener to do the 3rd Demonbolt even if you do take out Doom.

great guide. Just a small heads up for demo analysis based on simulationCraft. The spell data for t17 4pc, i.e., inner demon is still broken in the client files. This means the current simulated benefit of this set bonus is 0 dps.

Correct. Not even only that but the APL is kinda not optimal (and I'm clueless when it comes to APL building) but from what I hear in the new SimCraft build that's coming out soon both the APL and the set bonuses are improved/fixed.

Demonology is already 'fucking fun', people just haven't bothered to give it a chance.

On the subject of DS glyph and AD, it could potentially see use at the end of a fight where you have 500 fury and 4 stacks still up (or not depending on haste) and you sneak off 1 or 2 more Demonbolts plus some Soul Fires. Mannoroths and Demonbolt are not compatible anyway, but KJC could prove extremely useful.

Extremely true about the level of fun for Demo, it's a wonderfully fun spec.

That's basically the assumption I've been using it under, it also gives you the opportunity to have a hard swap option for Demonbolt, where you may not be able to do all 4 Demonbolts but you can do maybe 2 or 3 on a hard swap under Dark Soul (since the CD's aren't lined up).

[Tehterokkar]

Could you please explain further the part about HoG:

Hand of Gul'dan - Shadowflame Stacking
The 'correct' way to use Hand of Gul'dan is to wait until there is less then 6s until you get 2 charges of Hand of Gul'dan. You then want to use one charge, cast a few spells, and then clip shadowflame right before it runs out so you have ~5s of a one stack Shadowflame, then 8s of a 2 stack Shadowflame. Once you get 2P for T17 if you're in caster form you should have 100% uptime on Shadowflame since you have 3 charges of Hand of Gul'dan.

Mostly about the T17 2pc part since I did play Demo in MoP and am familiar with HoG stack efficiency. Getting 100% uptime on HoG is not possible without RNG from Corruption(2% is not a lot... That's essentially 1 charge every 50 ticks or 100 seconds(1 min 40s) with no haste). Should we just hoard HoG charges until nearly 3 are up and then just extend the already existing 2 stack DoT back to 8-9s?

You can keep the 2 stack HoG rolling pretty long(20s easily) but after that you are left with 0 HoG charges and no DoT.

[Berthold]

Correct. Not even only that but the APL is kinda not optimal (and I'm clueless when it comes to APL building) but from what I hear in the new SimCraft build that's coming out soon both the APL and the set bonuses are improved/fixed.

Demo APL was indeed vastly improved, but the 4 piece is still not in. (you can trust me on that, as gahddo and I are the primary maintainers of the warlock module in simc).
Fyi, nightly builds are available at http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D.

[Tehterokkar]

Also was testing the opener with Demonbolt + Imp Swarm. Tried it multiple times but I was NEVER able to cast Doombolt twice during the opener. This was with GoSup+Demonbolt. I have the 4pc T17 in Beta atm thanks to the vendors, but rest of my gear is quest greens pretty much.

Tried this manually, with opener macro and with troll opener macro(since I was a Troll).

Edit: Got it working after a while, relogged around a few times in a row and my Fury regenerated to 200 for once. Was only getting to around 100 before(and I wasn't in combat).

[Deleted]

I haven't been using IS on beta, and I've been able to cast 2 DBs on pull, with 615 ilvl and as a worgen (while testing heroics, havent been in raids lately, and ofc when not pulling the boss at 1000 DF).

We need 300 Fury to cast 2 DBs and Doom, which means we need to generate 100 Fury on the first 13 secs of the pull. I've been using this opening sequence:

Prepot -> Pre-cast SF -> Doom(Terror)guard -> Corruption -> HoG -> SB -> DS/On use Trinkets -> HoG -> Meta -> DB -> DB -> Doom

So, 30 DF from SF, 18 DF from DG (He has a 3 sec cast time if im not mistaken, so 3 casts at 6 DF each), 25 DF from Corruption (2.5 fury per sec), 25 DF from ShadowBolt, 20 DF from HoG (4 secs at 1 stack, 8 secs at 2 stacks), 12 DF from Felguard. That sums up to 130 Fury in the first 10 secs of the fight, and you're able to cast the second DB in time for the last second of the trinket proc, if it only lasts 10 secs and procs from the SF pre cast.

Did I make any wrong assumption? I just don't see any reason to take the IS glyph atm, it gives less fury overall, and you dont need it to get 2 dbs on pull.

[Santoisms]

Couple of things I noticed.
2) Cataclysm doesn't scale with Mastery so using it with Dark Soul will be a waste.

Wouldn't Cataclysm scale with caster form mastery?

Other than that, great job! I was considering switching to Mage but these forums have become a lot more positive the past few days and I'm started to get excited for WoD again.

I feel the same way about mmo champion forums, I've been skeptical to start posting again because Warlock forums usually consists of 30-40% players who try to act high and mighty and give other people the complete wrong information.

Also was testing the opener with Demonbolt + Imp Swarm. Tried it multiple times but I was NEVER able to cast Doombolt twice during the opener. This was with GoSup+Demonbolt. I have the 4pc T17 in Beta atm thanks to the vendors, but rest of my gear is quest greens pretty much.

Tried this manually, with opener macro and with troll opener macro(since I was a Troll).

Edit: Got it working after a while, relogged around a few times in a row and my Fury regenerated to 200 for once. Was only getting to around 100 before(and I wasn't in combat).

I use this opener and it works all the time:

Prepot -> Precast Soulfire -> Hand of Gul'dan -> Corruption -> Berserking / Dark Soul / On Use Cooldowns -> Imp Swarm -> Hand of Gul'dan -> Metamorphosis -> Doom -> 2 Demonbolts

Demo APL was indeed vastly improved, but the 4 piece is still not in. (you can trust me on that, as gahddo and I are the primary maintainers of the warlock module in simc).
Fyi, nightly builds are available at http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D.

They need to nerf Warriors 32k in Normal gear is insane.

Could you please explain further the part about HoG:


Mostly about the T17 2pc part since I did play Demo in MoP and am familiar with HoG stack efficiency. Getting 100% uptime on HoG is not possible without RNG from Corruption(2% is not a lot... That's essentially 1 charge every 50 ticks or 100 seconds(1 min 40s) with no haste). Should we just hoard HoG charges until nearly 3 are up and then just extend the already existing 2 stack DoT back to 8-9s?

You can keep the 2 stack HoG rolling pretty long(20s easily) but after that you are left with 0 HoG charges and no DoT.

You should use the 3rd stack for when you are able to make a 2 stack HoG. So for example in the opener when you leave Metamorphosis I hit HoG to extend the 2 stack HoG to 8-9 seconds. 2 stack is where the DPS is.

Fixed accordingly (that's what I get for not proofreading old iterations).

Correct. Not even only that but the APL is kinda not optimal (and I'm clueless when it comes to APL building) but from what I hear in the new SimCraft build that's coming out soon both the APL and the set bonuses are improved/fixed.

This. Not and I actually talked about this last night on mumble Hopefully the new one will give us a solid foundation for Butcher.

Warlock community is the best. The initial guide is a 1 man job (mostly) but after that it's all of us coming here with some math that this guy did, and another person that tried some Glyph under these specific circumstances and comes and shares the results. The effect hopefully is that we all participate in bringing information to this thread and discuss the merits of stuff or possibilities and the guidemaker hopefully takes it all in and adds the relevant parts to his guide so it evolves with the content and becomes a tried and true compilation of the best way to play a (in this case) Demonology Warlock.

This. The Warlock community is definitely trying to give more solid feedback from players who are solid, as well as discussing math and theorycrafting.

Haste
Haste rating increases the speed we cast, the rate our DoTs tick, how fast our Primary pets gain energy, and also decrease the cooldown of Imp Swarm, Demonic Calling and Demonbolt. Touch of chaos is at a 1s GCD and is not effected by haste. You will need 80 rating for 1% haste.

Should be 100 rating per 1%.

[Soulzar]

All the openers I have seen here so far are casting Darksoul before the second HoG and going to Meta to put up doom and fury dump DBs. Without snapshotting, would we want to delay it to to just before your Demon Bolt casts? Or do RPPM procs wear off too soon to delay it at all?

If you are using an on use trinket and an RPPM (starting gear posted above), is there really a reason to pop into Meta before your RPPM procs? How much Fury does 3 DB need?

Seems like RPPM proc duration on pull is the only thing holding you back from dropping your 3rd HoG charge (t17) before going into meta and may allow for 3DB in opener.

No math, just thinking out loud

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Additionally, I think the Life pact (no life tap, mana reduction) glyph doesn't get a fair shake in its description in the guide. Similar to how AD allows for really high Dark Soul up time on later tier speed kills, I think this glyph could be a go to once kill times are lowered to the point that OOMING is not going to happen. This glyph looks like it can be very powerful, but will be very situational and probably never a progression glyph. I could see this glyph being good on Council type fights where HoG, Corruption, Wild imps, and more MC charges from multiple targets pushes your Meta uptime higher allowing more passive mana regen.

Great Guide, thanks for putting it together.

[Santoisms]

All the openers I have seen here so far are casting Darksoul before the second HoG and going to Meta to put up doom and fury dump DBs. Without snapshotting, would we want to delay it to to just before your Demon Bolt casts? Or do RPPM procs wear off too soon to delay it at all?

If you are using an on use trinket and an RPPM (starting gear posted above), is there really a reason to pop into Meta before your RPPM procs? How much Fury does 3 DB need?

Seems like RPPM proc duration on pull is the only thing holding you back from dropping your 3rd HoG charge (t17) before going into meta and may allow for 3DB in opener.

No math, just thinking out loud.

The RPPM procs, especially Synergy / Bleeding Hollow enchant would wear off if you were to delay Demonbolt, plus you're only getting 2 in the opener and it barely catches it.

Additionally, I think the Life pact (no life tap, mana reduction) glyph doesn't get a fair shake in its description in the guide. Similar to how AD allows for really high Dark Soul up time on later tier speed kills, I think this glyph could be a go to once kill times are lowered to the point that OOMING is not going to happen. This glyph looks like it can be very powerful, but will be very situational and probably never a progression glyph. I could see this glyph being good on Council type fights where HoG, Corruption, Wild imps, and more MC charges from multiple targets pushes your Meta uptime higher allowing more passive mana regen.

Could be something to think about, but I don't see it personally because you are using a shit ton of mana by using Soul Fire outside of Meta and I still do not think the glyph would be able to keep up.

[Xanattos]

I haven't been using IS on beta, and I've been able to cast 2 DBs on pull, with 615 ilvl and as a worgen (while testing heroics, havent been in raids lately, and ofc when not pulling the boss at 1000 DF).

We need 300 Fury to cast 2 DBs and Doom, which means we need to generate 100 Fury on the first 13 secs of the pull. I've been using this opening sequence:

Prepot -> Pre-cast SF -> Doom(Terror)guard -> Corruption -> HoG -> SB -> DS/On use Trinkets -> HoG -> Meta -> DB -> DB -> Doom

So, 30 DF from SF, 18 DF from DG (He has a 3 sec cast time if im not mistaken, so 3 casts at 6 DF each), 25 DF from Corruption (2.5 fury per sec), 25 DF from ShadowBolt, 20 DF from HoG (4 secs at 1 stack, 8 secs at 2 stacks), 12 DF from Felguard. That sums up to 130 Fury in the first 10 secs of the fight, and you're able to cast the second DB in time for the last second of the trinket proc, if it only lasts 10 secs and procs from the SF pre cast.

Did I make any wrong assumption? I just don't see any reason to take the IS glyph atm, it gives less fury overall, and you dont need it to get 2 dbs on pull.

While I understand that synergy is optimal (as of our current knowledge) wouldn't GoServ also provide even more fury? if we are having issues with fury generation until a bit more gear perhaps GoServ will be better until that time comes?