[GUIDE] Mistweavers of Draenor: PvE Healing in [6.2]

[Myta]

How can you even say Arcane Torrent doesn't save lifes when we have extend life? Arcane Torrent not only offers better burst hps thanks to extend life, but offers better sustain and more mana.

There's not even a comparison you can make.

Sure you can say GoTN is a good aillance racial, but the best overall racial is arcane torrent by a long shot. This will continue into legion.

GotN being great doesn't usurp Arcane Torrent as an extremely strong racial, it's probably too strong atm, it'll be more balanced when all it does in a raid is restore mana (which is still insane as the only Alliance racial that competes with the mana gain is Gnome, but that's only 5% more mana and AT is 3% every 1.5min). GotN just picks people up and stops them from dying, and is crucial (for me at least) to many encounters where someone needs to soak anything in WoD, so I like it. I would say Draenei (The raw int is also better than Belf crit which I think intentionally offsets that AT is a stronger active racial) are best Alliance monks, with Gnomes coming in 2nd (if you're already MS capped than the haste is great).

That's just my opinion, not saying AT is bad or not crazy if not too good in WoD, but that other racials do deserve some consideration espec. for Alliance players who want to roll Monk too.

[Supliftz]

GotN being great doesn't usurp Arcane Torrent as an extremely strong racial, it's probably too strong atm

That's not what you said.

In a vacuum Arcane Torrent is better, but in practice Gift of the Naaru is a 2nd Enveloping Mists for free, that doesn't require you to SooM first. Almost every fight from heal absorbs on Zakuun and Velhaari, soaking stacks on Mannoroth and Archimonde. GotN saves lives and it's tangibly/clutch useful in a way that Arcane Torrent is more passively useful (providing long term benefit over a fight) especially on a class like Monk that is shy on healing cooldowns.

Which was clearly false. In practice arcane torrent is far better because the value of chi (especially off-gcd chi), is extremely high. Thanks to extend life being as powerful as it is right now.

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GotN just picks people up and stops them from dying, and is crucial (for me at least) to many encounters where someone needs to soak anything

sure but that doesn't make it better than arcane torrent in practice, which is what you were suggesting.

[Myta]

That's not what you said.



Which was clearly false. In practice arcane torrent is far better because the value of chi (especially off-gcd chi), is extremely high. Thanks to extend life being as powerful as it is right now.

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sure but that doesn't make it better than arcane torrent in practice, which is what you were suggesting.

Stronger overall, and what I was suggesting that AT's strength is over an entire fight. What I was saying is that the things GotN saves you from AT cannot, it's a bursty off-GCD heal. You're arguing something different and that AT over an entire fight provides much more healing which I never argued against, and I have add to agree with you and try to drag the argument back to what I was trying to point out is that AT won't save from a wipe that GotN can in the clutch healing world of Mythics atm.

Both are strong for different reasons and you haven't heard what I said regarding GotN, it's strong in ways that AT isn't and does things AT can't. Both are good, AT is good for min/maxing reasons in a way you can track on a log, you cannot track clutch CD usage on a log which is what GotN is good for. They are different beasts and both are good. I said this in my very first post.

[Supliftz]

Stronger overall, and what I was suggesting that AT's strength is over an entire fight. What I was saying is that the things GotN saves you from AT cannot, it's a bursty off-GCD heal.

Which is completely false. Extend life is far more powerful effect at saving someone's life than a 20k heal over 5 seconds lol. If arcane torrent allows you to cast another uplift/rem combo, that's going to massively outperform GoTN in all scenarios (saving someone's life, overall hps, mana sustain, etc).

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I was trying to point out is that AT won't save from a wipe that GotN can in the clutch healing world of Mythics atm.

This is again, 100% false. You cannot say this when extend life exists.

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Both are strong for different reasons and you haven't heard what I said regarding GotN, it's strong in ways that AT isn't and does things AT can't. Both are good, AT is good for min/maxing reasons in a way you can track on a log, you cannot track clutch CD usage on a log which is what GotN is good for. They are different beasts and both are good. I said this in my very first post.

I'm not saying that GoTN is a weak racial. I'm merely saying that Arcane Torrent is a far better racial overall. You're trying to say that you can't save peoples lives with arcane torrent when uplift/rem sniping exists with extend life. If arcane torrent enables you to do this, you've literally done the job of Gift of the Naruu, but on a much shorter cd on top of giving yourself higher hps and mana.

[Myta]

[QUOTE=Supliftz;40372484]

Stronger overall, and what I was suggesting that AT's strength is over an entire fight. What I was saying is that the things GotN saves you from AT cannot, it's a bursty off-GCD heal./QUOTE]

Which is completely false. Extend life is far more powerful effect at saving someone's life than a 20k heal over 5 seconds lol. If arcane torrent allows you to cast another uplift/rem combo, that's going to massively outperform GoTN in all scenarios (saving someone's life, overall hps, mana sustain, etc).

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This is again, 100% false. You cannot say this when extend life exists.

One, it's not a 20k heal over 5secs, It's a 20k heal every second for 5seconds. And for AT to achieve the same effect as GotN (such as putting a hot on each tank you have to EnV one tank and GotN the second, both effects hit the tanks simultaneously), you have to EnV one tank, EnV tank1+AT+EH(Powerstrikes)+SooM+EnV tank2. In the end you spent 3 GCDs to do what EnV+GotN can do in one. GotN can do such fun things such as chains on Xhul EnV 1, LC another, GotN a third. GotN cuts down on the # of GCDs you need to accomplish the same goal, while also allowing you to double up EnV on one tank if you ever need that much healing (I do that on Velhari and Zakuun), that combo practically deletes Touch of Harm as a thing inside 1 GCD.

It's clutch healing, it's a fast clutch HoT and isn't comparable to AT which provides prolonged benefit. It doesn't mean GotN > AT the two racials are strong in ways that are different, and GotN can open up plays in ways AT can't imo.

[Supliftz]

One, it's not a 20k heal over 5secs, It's a 20k heal every second for 5seconds. And for AT to achieve the same effect as GotN (such as putting a hot on each tank you have to EnV one tank and GotN the second, both effects hit the tanks simultaneously), you have to EnV one tank, EnV tank1+AT+EH(Powerstrikes)+SooM+EnV tank2. In the end you spent 3 GCDs to do what EnV+GotN can do in one.

Or you could just put renewing mist on those people instead and spam uplift. Doing more ST healing, faster. Arcane Torrent enables you to chain uplift casts, that is why it's the superior racial.

I can see now why you don't agree with me. You're playing this situation sub-optimally.

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GotN can do such fun things such as chains on Xhul EnV 1, LC another, GotN a third. GotN cuts down on the # of GCDs you need to accomplish the same goal, while also allowing you to double up EnV on one tank if you ever need that much healing (I do that on Velhari and Zakuun), that combo practically deletes Touch of Harm as a thing inside 1 GCD.

And arcane torrent allows you to replace a global cooldown spent on expel harm or soothing surg to speed up your next uplift cast. If that allows you to reactively spot heal something, then you've just achieved what GoTN has done but faster and generated you more healing/mana.

I also don't see how you can say that GoTN is what's enabling you to delete touch of harm when it's a 100k heal out of the 4M healing needed to be done. Arcane Torrent there massively outpaces GoTN because it gives you a chi for an uplift cast, which is worth a lot more healing in that scenario than GoTN.

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It's clutch healing, it's a fast clutch HoT and isn't comparable to AT which provides prolonged benefit. It doesn't mean GotN > AT the two racials are strong in ways that are different, and GotN can open up plays in ways AT can't imo.

Sure you can say it's a fast hot. But it's also not a very good hot. I just think you're playing situations sub-optimally in your examples which is why you can believe arcane torrent is not clutch healing for w/e reason.

Arcane Torrent can literally do everything thanks to extend life. That's why it's an insane racial.

[Myta]

Or you could just put renewing mist on those people instead and spam uplift. Doing more ST healing, faster. Arcane Torrent enables you to chain uplift casts, that is why it's the superior racial.

I can see now why you don't agree with me. You're playing this situation sub-optimally.

You're going to have to explain why it's suboptimal to EnV a tank if they need huge doses of healing (Like on doomfire stacks), which also spreads through your Extend Life targets. and then begin Uplift casts on the rest of the raid. imo it's quite necessary if you're having to solo heal Doomfire 1-2 like I am and need EnV up on tanks. When I don't need EnV up I spend that chi on Uplift instead.

And arcane torrent allows you to replace a global cooldown spent on expel harm or soothing surg to speed up your next uplift cast. If that allows you to reactively spot heal something, then you've just achieved what GoTN has done but faster and generated you more healing/mana.

I also don't see how you can say that GoTN is what's enabling you to delete touch of harm when it's a 100k heal out of the 4M healing needed to be done. Arcane Torrent there massively outpaces GoTN because it gives you a chi for an uplift cast, which is worth a lot more healing in that scenario than GoTN.

It's good when you need that extra chi during Uplift casts. I don't have AT and so I spend the GCD on RJW to get the chi for Uplift in group healing situations. But also in those situations I have GotN to provide fast tank healing (as sometimes the active tank needs something like GotN + EL EnV HoT while the tank taking stacks needs EnV and concentrated healing. For me AT's best feature is the chi, which to me is more important than the mana, as I never run out of mana unless I'm using RJW when it's completely suboptimal to do so. There are plenty of times in fights like Arch and Manno for me to drink. So yes the chi given by AT is super powerful, but I can deal with those situations with GotN as well and not be gimped for doing so. GotN seems bad to you on paper but in practice it's very good. It's greatest strength is the 1sec ticks, as even GotN overheals (EnV grossly so) unless it's on something like a Touch of Harm target.

I wasn't trying to say GotN soloes Touch of Harm either, but rather that a LC+EnV+GotN combo is very strong, I'm not the only one healing Harm, but in that instance GotN is strong in ways AT isn't as you can't ordinarily double up on hots, and with that strategy we do delete Touch of Harm in seconds.

Sure you can say it's a fast hot. But it's also not a very good hot. I just think you're playing situations sub-optimally in your examples which is why you can believe arcane torrent is not clutch healing for w/e reason.

Arcane Torrent can literally do everything thanks to extend life. That's why it's an insane racial.

I dunno, it doesn't need to heal for a ton of damage, what matters is the speed at which the ticks occur, how many ticks often doesn't matter in the end as it's the often overhealing in the end anyways, same as EnV. AT is strong and I have never doubted it, but my point is that GotN is strong in ways AT isn't, you're focusing on it numerically and that's not the be all end all of Warcraft, and I think it requires playtesting with it to understand it's strength.

[cqwrteur]

Why do you compare draenei and blood elf? Draenei is an alliance race and blood elf is a horde race. Horde now has better PVE than alliance. Choosing horde would provide you a better raid for ranking.

[Supliftz]

You're going to have to explain why it's suboptimal to EnV a tank if they need huge doses of healing (Like on doomfire stacks), which also spreads through your Extend Life targets. and then begin Uplift casts on the rest of the raid. imo it's quite necessary if you're having to solo heal Doomfire 1-2 like I am and need EnV up on tanks. When I don't need EnV up I spend that chi on Uplift instead.

Because uplift extend life healing is far more healing on 1 target than enveloping mist, especially with high multistrike levels.

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It's good when you need that extra chi during Uplift casts. I don't have AT and so I spend the GCD on RJW to get the chi for Uplift in group healing situations. But also in those situations I have GotN to provide fast tank healing (as sometimes the active tank needs something like GotN + EL EnV HoT while the tank taking stacks needs EnV and concentrated healing.

What you don't understand is every chi generation spell is far weaker than a uplift cast right now. That means speeding up your next uplift cast in a burst/life saving scenario is going to save peoples lives, and being forced to cast rjw or surging mist isn't.

You keep talking about GoTN doing fast tank healing, but it really does shit all healing. It does less healing than a holy shock beacon transfer on 1 target. So like I already mentioned if arcane torrent allows you to cast another uplift sooner, you're going to contribute far more tank hps in that scenario than a 20k heal every 1 second for 5 seconds.

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For me AT's best feature is the chi, which to me is more important than the mana, as I never run out of mana unless I'm using RJW when it's completely suboptimal to do so. There are plenty of times in fights like Arch and Manno for me to drink. So yes the chi given by AT is super powerful, but I can deal with those situations with GotN as well and not be gimped for doing so. GotN seems bad to you on paper but in practice it's very good. It's greatest strength is the 1sec ticks, as even GotN overheals (EnV grossly so) unless it's on something like a Touch of Harm target.

Obviously the raw chi generated is the best feature of arcane torrent right now. I'm merely saying this because not only does arcane torrent completely out do Gift of the Naruu in all scenarios, but it also gives you free mana.

Btw i'm sure you can deal with scenarios without arcane torrent just fine. But you simply can't say GoTN performs better than arcane torrent. It's simply false is as powerful as it is right now.

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I wasn't trying to say GotN soloes Touch of Harm either, but rather that a LC+EnV+GotN combo is very strong, I'm not the only one healing Harm, but in that instance GotN is strong in ways AT isn't as you can't ordinarily double up on hots, and with that strategy we do delete Touch of Harm in seconds.

That combo is good because enveloping mist + life cocoon does a lot of healing, not because GoTN is a good spell. Like I keep telling you arcane torrent would contribute far more hps there because you could fit in potential uplift casts inside enveloping mist duration.

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I dunno, it doesn't need to heal for a ton of damage, what matters is the speed at which the ticks occur, how many ticks often doesn't matter in the end as it's the often overhealing in the end anyways, same as EnV. AT is strong and I have never doubted it, but my point is that GotN is strong in ways AT isn't, you're focusing on it numerically and that's not the be all end all of Warcraft, and I think it requires playtesting with it to understand it's strength.

And like I keep telling you over and over, your points about GoTN being strong in scenarios where AT isn't is completely false. I still cannot understand how someone can suggest this when extend life exists inside the mistweaver kit.

[Myta]

Because uplift extend life healing is far more healing on 1 target than enveloping mist, especially with high multistrike levels.

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What you don't understand is every chi generation spell is far weaker than a uplift cast right now. That means speeding up your next uplift cast in a burst/life saving scenario is going to save peoples lives, and being forced to cast rjw or surging mist isn't.

You keep talking about GoTN doing fast tank healing, but it really does shit all healing. It does less healing than a holy shock beacon transfer on 1 target. So like I already mentioned if arcane torrent allows you to cast another uplift sooner, you're going to contribute far more tank hps in that scenario than a 20k heal every 1 second for 5 seconds.

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Obviously the raw chi generated is the best feature of arcane torrent right now. I'm merely saying this because not only does arcane torrent completely out do Gift of the Naruu in all scenarios, but it also gives you free mana.

Btw i'm sure you can deal with scenarios without arcane torrent just fine. But you simply can't say GoTN performs better than arcane torrent. It's simply false is as powerful as it is right now.

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That combo is good because enveloping mist + life cocoon does a lot of healing, not because GoTN is a good spell. Like I keep telling you arcane torrent would contribute far more hps there because you could fit in potential uplift casts inside enveloping mist duration.

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And like I keep telling you over and over, your points about GoTN being strong in scenarios where AT isn't is completely false. I still cannot understand how someone can suggest this when extend life exists inside the mistweaver kit.

Atm I don't think we'll reach an agreement. I think GotN is quite strong, despite looking on paper being quite weak. Now in Legion the mana will become more important as AT no longer generates chi, still probably the best Horde racial in the end. But in all this my point was that GotN is quite strong and it opens plays for me in ways that AT in my opinion wouldn't, in ways that you need 40k or so healing done before you can spend 2 gcds on a different burst heal. The healing amount imo doesn't matter much (EnV ticks dominate GotN's ofc) but the 1tick a second + the off gcd makes it crazy fast, that's hard to beat. That's all.

If you're going Horde and you wanna min/max go Belf.

Now what will be the best min/max race in Legion for MW Monks? Probably Gnomes (if mana is a problem and the healing model doesn't revert back to infinite mana by the 2nd tier)

[cqwrteur]

Atm I don't think we'll reach an agreement. I think GotN is quite strong, despite looking on paper being quite weak. Now in Legion the mana will become more important as AT no longer generates chi, still probably the best Horde racial in the end. But in all this my point was that GotN is quite strong and it opens plays for me in ways that AT in my opinion wouldn't, in ways that you need 40k or so healing done before you can spend 2 gcds on a different burst heal. The healing amount imo doesn't matter much (EnV ticks dominate GotN's ofc) but the 1tick a second + the off gcd makes it crazy fast, that's hard to beat. That's all.

If you're going Horde and you wanna min/max go Belf.

Now what will be the best min/max race in Legion for MW Monks? Probably Gnomes (if mana is a problem and the healing model doesn't revert back to infinite mana by the 2nd tier)

Blood elf also provides 3% mana per 1.5 min. It wouldn't be worse than gnomes in legion.

The reason you think GotN is good is you love Draenei.

Many people including me hate Draenei. We won't play it. So this topic ends.

I love human and blood elf female. In fact, human and blood elf females also have both awesome racial and appearance. Most people in the world choose human and blood elf females. They are king.

[cqwrteur]

A simple question. Socket or leech, which is better?

[Geodew]

A simple question. Socket or leech, which is better?

Depends on how much Leech. Use stat weights. Usually sockets tho IIRC.

[Spotnick]

Since this is pretty much the last days of 6.2 and this thread will most likely die next week... which trinkets are you going with next week?

I was thinking Iron Reaver Piston and Demonic Phylactery, I'm not sure I want to have that much versatility.

Which reminds me, did they change SDI at all? I didn't check at all on the PTR and Wowhead seems to say no.

[Supliftz]

sdi is going to be even worse than what it is on live

[Geodew]

Why would you ever unequip UFE :P
Other trinket probably IG or DP

[Spotnick]

Why would you ever unequip UFE :P
Other trinket probably IG or DP

Because Versatility instead of Spirit.

Plus I have no idea if they changed anything with Leech in Legion, so that was kind of the point of my question... I use UFE on raids because I just want to get it done fast now and don't care about parses, but I figured the stats on the other trinkets were better than all tha versatility from UFE/IG.

[Geodew]

Because Versatility instead of Spirit.

Plus I have no idea if they changed anything with Leech in Legion, so that was kind of the point of my question... I use UFE on raids because I just want to get it done fast now and don't care about parses, but I figured the stats on the other trinkets were better than all tha versatility from UFE/IG.

Versatility is not bad at all for healers. The crit vs. versatility weights on my Legion spreadsheet should be very accurate, so you can see Vers is at the very least "competitive" and probably even "good." The coming revisions to my estimations will largely just affect Haste and Mastery.

In fact, I think it's for that exact reason that they turned spirit into vers.