France Suffering From Brain Drain

[Deleted]

I remember reading about the wife of former French president François Mitterand in the Steve Jobs biography.

She was on a tour in the Apple factory and when they proudly told her about all their systems to enhance and increase productivity she kept interrupting them asking about the overpay that people got and how much vacation days they had.

France is, and always was, economically doomed.

[Crissi]

This doesn't mean that 75% of peoples millions is taken away, it means that 75% of the income that is above a certain bracket is taken away. So its not like they're going to strarve to death, it just means that they'll only be able to buy a new Porsche after saving for 2 years instead of saving up for 6 months.

ad arbitrary "You only need this much money to live, so anything beyond that ets taxed heavily" is always going to be heavily resented. its one of the major reasons my dad's CEO stays in the U.S. They have HQs in Paris but I was told he openly complains about how business and wealth unfriendly france is over there compared to the U.S

[Dezerte]

And? If I was living in France and had an idea that could potentially make me rich, I'd get out of there too. I don't get where some people get the idea that if you already have more than most people, you suddenly stop caring about money and want to give it all away especially if theres a way to keep it (by moving out of the country).

It's never in societies best interest to have large income inequalities. It breeds resentment and civil disorder. A higher tax is a relatively small price to pay to have lower crime, better infrastructure, a more educated workforce and a larger group of consumers with more disposable money to spend.

That said, I think France has been far too aggressive with their political reforms.

[Deleted]

ad arbitrary "You only need this much money to live, so anything beyond that ets taxed heavily" is always going to be heavily resented. its one of the major reasons my dad's CEO stays in the U.S. They have HQs in Paris but I was told he openly complains about how business and wealth unfriendly france is over there compared to the U.S

Ofcoarse its always going to be heavily resented, things that require solidarity, effort and reason always are, like climate change and weapon restrictions are also heavily resented, because people are lazy and greedy.

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It's never in societies best interest to have large income inequalities. It breeds resentment and civil disorder. A higher tax is a relatively small price to pay to have lower crime, better infrastructure, a more educated workforce and a larger group of consumers with more disposable money to spend.

That said, I think France has been far too aggressive with their political reforms.

I don't know about the political reforms in France but this could make sense.

[Crissi]

Ofcoarse its always going to be heavily resented, things that require solidarity, effort and reason always are, like climate change and weapon restrictions are also heavily resented, because people are lazy and greedy.

You speak of solidarity, but that requires working together. alienating the people who would contribute a lot doesnt exactly do that.

DO I think the rich need to stop abusing loopholes and pay what the law already states? yes. Do I think France has gone so completely overboard that its kinda backfired? most certainly.

[Kalis]

France is, and always was, economically doomed.

They're the fifth largest economy in the world...

If that's them 'doomed', I'd hate to see what it'd be like if they were doing well.

[Calaba]

So yeah, let's start blaming immigrants even though the article clearly says the problem is something entirely else.

If you don't think immigration is a major factor here, you're being naiive.

The problem is A) too much immigration and B) too much beaurocratic BS. The first is as a result of socialist policys, which result in huge numbers of immigrants coming in to France and sponging off the state. This pushes up taxes. The same happens in the UK. This is made worse by being an EU member, and therefore having 0 control over your borders.
You can start to fix this problem by stopping immigration, although the real fix is to put a stop to socalism. But really you need to do both.

The beaurocrat problem is an issue caused by being in the EU. Put simply, in the US they look at a new idea and ask "how can we make money on this". In the EU, it's "how can we regulate this". The only way to fix this at this point is to leave the EU, as there's too much legislation being produced. This is why UKIP is now a thing in the UK : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29549414

[Deleted]

It's never in societies best interest to have large income inequalities. It breeds resentment and civil disorder. A higher tax is a relatively small price to pay to have lower crime, better infrastructure, a more educated workforce and a larger group of consumers with more disposable money to spend.

That said, I think France has been far too aggressive with their political reforms.

Maybe but who in their right mind would put society first if they could instead improve their own lives and those of their families. So instead of making things better, they actually make things worse because instead of getting say 30% taxes from booming businesses and luring in foreign investors, they get far less from the few patriots who are too old or conservative to leave the country.

[Kalis]

If you don't think immigration is a major factor here, you're being naiive.

The problem is A) too much immigration and B) too much beaurocratic BS. The first is as a result of socialist policys, which result in huge numbers of immigrants coming in to France and sponging off the state. This pushes up taxes. The same happens in the UK. This is made worse by being an EU member, and therefore having 0 control over your borders.
You can start to fix this problem by stopping immigration, although the real fix is to put a stop to socalism. But really you need to do both.

The beaurocrat problem is an issue caused by being in the EU. Put simply, in the US they look at a new idea and ask "how can we make money on this". In the EU, it's "how can we regulate this". The only way to fix this at this point is to leave the EU, as there's too much legislation being produced. This is why UKIP is now a thing in the UK : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29549414

Immigrants to the UK provide a net economic benefit, so how are they sponging off the state when they pay in more than they receive?

[Deleted]

If you don't think immigration is a major factor here, you're being naiive.

The problem is A) too much immigration and B) too much beaurocratic BS. The first is as a result of socialist policys, which result in huge numbers of immigrants coming in to France and sponging off the state. This pushes up taxes. The same happens in the UK. This is made worse by being an EU member, and therefore having 0 control over your borders.
You can start to fix this problem by stopping immigration, although the real fix is to put a stop to socalism. But really you need to do both.

The beaurocrat problem is an issue caused by being in the EU. Put simply, in the US they look at a new idea and ask "how can we make money on this". In the EU, it's "how can we regulate this". The only way to fix this at this point is to leave the EU, as there's too much legislation being produced. This is why UKIP is now a thing in the UK : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29549414

The reasons are listed in the article. And it has nothing to do with immigration and the EU. If the case was as you said it is, then people would be fleeing Sweden and Germany as well, but that's not the case here.

Really, read the article.

[Deleted]

France is, and always was, economically doomed.

I guess we should all foster tax avoidance schemes that allow multinational corporations and wealthy individuals everywhere to have their cake and eat it too, like the Netherlands, right?

[Calaba]

Immigrants to the UK provide a net economic benefit, so how are they sponging off the state when they pay in more than they receive?

Hahaha LOL good one!
Just keep telling yourself that - there's elections in May.

[Kalis]

Just keep telling yourself that - there's elections in May.

I don't have to tell myself it, I can just read about it...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24813467

http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_.../CDP_22_13.pdf - the study the story relates to.

[Deleted]

I remember reading about the wife of former French president François Mitterand in the Steve Jobs biography.

She was on a tour in the Apple factory and when they proudly told her about all their systems to enhance and increase productivity she kept interrupting them asking about the overpay that people got and how much vacation days they had.

France is, and always was, economically doomed.

You know that most of Apple production is in China....there worker-protection and environmental concerns is not high on the list.

[Calaba]

I don't have to tell myself it, I can just read about it...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24813467

http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_.../CDP_22_13.pdf - the study the story relates to.

Oh, come on, You might have at least checked the comments section on the BBC article you linked to see the issues with these claims.

The fact is that they don't even know how many are in the country.

[Kalis]

Oh, come on, You might have at least checked the comments section on the BBC article you linked to see the issues with these claims.

The fact is that they don't even know how many are in the country.

You're saying that the comments section of a BBC article is more valid than a university study? Can you prove that study is false, rather than just state some more unfounded gibberish?

[Deleted]

The only way to fix this at this point is to leave the EU, as there's too much legislation being produced. This is why UKIP is now a thing in the UK : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29549414

Plz, let the UK leave the EU, they'll be beggin to be allowed in again after enormous amounts of economical failure. Really, leaving the EU would be a catastrophe for the British economy, it would cause some problems for the other members of the EU, but they would be mostly fine.

[Calaba]

You're saying that the comments section of a BBC article is more valid than a university study? Can you prove that study is false, rather than just state some more unfounded gibberish?

Yes.
Because we live in a democracy, like it or not. As for the study, they don't know how many immigrants there are in the country, and so can only comment on those that are "ecomonically active" (ie paying taxes)

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I like this logic where "known facts and figures" can't be trusted because apparently no one knows the extent of the problem...but at the same time YOU somehow DO know.

Seems legit.

No. I don't know. No-one does. That's the problem.

[Deleted]

Yes.
Because we live in a democracy, like it or not. As for the study, they don't know how many immigrants there are in the country, and so can only comment on those that are "ecomonically active" (ie paying taxes)

So in your logic:

some random blokes opinion > studied facts by people who actually know what they are doing

People like you shouldn't be allowed to vote. A lot of the worlds problems would be solved in months.

[Kalis]

Yes.
Because we live in a democracy, like it or not.

Living in a democracy makes a comments section of equal value to a researched study?

I asked you to stop with the gibberish, not spout some more!

As for the study, they don't know how many immigrants there are in the country, and so can only comment on those that are "ecomonically active" (ie paying taxes)

They know how many are paying tax, and how many are receiving benefits, so how can the ones not known about be a drain on the British economy if they aren't taking anything out of the British economy?