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  1. #1721
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    You need to read more carefully, my friend.



    And that's exactly what I said. You agree with the functioning**, since you applied it in BRF, and even on Vehlari while progression. But, you now think it was a mistake on Vehlari - that this functioning wasn't beneficial on that boss.
    Didn't you read the line just below the section you quoted? What's the point in quoting half of what I wrote and argue on it, whilst the line right below says what you just said?

    **The mechanics behind Mastery damage mitigation vs Crit damage mitigation.


    Not to the point that they are no longer dangerous when you have low HP (50-%) and/or the Aura of Malice. The keyword here was "dangerous".



    What has this got to do with anything? You seem to think I somehow said Externals weren't a factor in the fight.. No, I am not saying/implying anything remotely close to that.
    I say Externals don't change anything when it comes to the functioning of Mastery damage mitigation on the whole of that fight. The only way this could be is if you are able to smoothen incoming damage with CDs the whole of the 2nd half of P2, and P3 (=>the dangerous part of the fight). That would indeed remove the primary benefit one might get from a Mastery optimization (that same benefit you still agree was productive in BRF).
    But obviously, this isn't happening any time soon - my raid sure didn't have enough CDs for that.


    Quite frankly, to me that distinction is inexistant. Also, this implies your knowledge on the matter is not limited, and that you have all the answers. So far, I haven't seen any objective reasoning behind that claim.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm sure you know the difference between inquiring about one's reasoning behind said optimization versus plainly claiming that optimization is bad or not optimal enough.


    Was that an actual order? Because I'm very stubborn when I'm ordered to do anything really...


    If you truly are then you might want to look up Cyclonus' work. It regards Glad optimization but you can learn a lot from it when it come to Prot DPS. His blog: http://gladiatorsresolve.blogspot.be...tor-guide.html.

    - - - Updated - - -

    @Forim
    Here are results of a quick Sim run. It might help picture how Haste/Multi become better for DPS once you exceed a certain percentage of Crit:



    Patchwork 1-target in 738-ilvl gear with EDH+Plume.
    You can dl the full result HTML page here: http://www.filedropper.com/edh-resultshtml

    (standard SimC options and default bnet import text were used for this).
    At what % of crit you would say multistrike gets better? i'm currently sitting at 30% crit unbuffed and thinking about dropping some more crit for multistrike.

  2. #1722
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deliverer View Post
    At what % of crit you would say multistrike gets better? i'm currently sitting at 30% crit unbuffed and thinking about dropping some more crit for multistrike.
    About 25+% unbuff. It depends a lot on how much Multi you already have. The more you have, the more Crit you can stack before having to switch Multi/Haste.
    Last edited by mmocd210ee9388; 2016-02-06 at 07:42 PM.

  3. #1723
    Field Marshal EricN's Avatar
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    So we are now at an optimal build being crit to 25% unbuff, then moving on to multistrike? How about Haste... does this come into play at all? This is regarding Prot DPS exclusively
    Twitch.tv/ericn_tv

  4. #1724
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by EricN View Post
    So we are now at an optimal build being crit to 25% unbuff, then moving on to multistrike? How about Haste... does this come into play at all? This is regarding Prot DPS exclusively
    Yes. Haste can be potentially better than Crit or Multi, depending on how much of those 3 stats you have. You should Sim your character to get the actually numbers.

    PS:
    Your sign says "Twitch.tv/ericn_tv for high level Prot Gameplay and theorycrafting!". It makes me wonder how comes you can't Sim these sorts of things and figure out your best build? This is pure curiosity really, nothing else.

  5. #1725

  6. #1726
    Quote Originally Posted by EricN View Post
    So we are now at an optimal build being crit to 25% unbuff, then moving on to multistrike? How about Haste... does this come into play at all? This is regarding Prot DPS exclusively
    There are haste breakpoints at 12.5% and 25% that you'll want to hit. However, hitting 25% without WUE is not easy. So you're best bet is to hit 12.5% (extra GCD inside Bloodbath, iirc) and gear Crit/Multi from there.

    Here's a link to the BiS gear for DPS that takes into account the haste breakpoint.
    Last edited by Marok; 2016-02-12 at 07:11 PM.

  7. #1727
    Dreadlord GoKs's Avatar
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    Hey all.

    Soz if this is considered lazy or incompetent, but I cant find a good guide for prot warrior, the only one I see is on icy-veins, and it looks a bit out dated.
    I am still leveling my warrior (lvl99 an a half) and not sure what stats is best, I havnt tanked a dungeon yet, since I am afraid people will kick me lol, will wait till I ding 100 and the do dungeons with my friends, they will be a bit more lenient, but not sure what to gem and enchant for?

    I read mastery > crit = vers > haste > ms...... but now here and there I read about haste breakpoints and switching to ms.... I assume it is at higher ilvl? And that crit > mastery for more dps, when you dont need to worry about staying alive?

    Thanks and or sorry in advance.

  8. #1728
    Quote Originally Posted by GoKs View Post
    Hey all.

    Soz if this is considered lazy or incompetent, but I cant find a good guide for prot warrior, the only one I see is on icy-veins, and it looks a bit out dated.
    I am still leveling my warrior (lvl99 an a half) and not sure what stats is best, I havnt tanked a dungeon yet, since I am afraid people will kick me lol, will wait till I ding 100 and the do dungeons with my friends, they will be a bit more lenient, but not sure what to gem and enchant for?

    I read mastery > crit = vers > haste > ms...... but now here and there I read about haste breakpoints and switching to ms.... I assume it is at higher ilvl? And that crit > mastery for more dps, when you dont need to worry about staying alive?

    Thanks and or sorry in advance.
    What was just talked about above is the stats for maximizing DPS. For progression or just a defensive stat priority in general is: BA > Crit > Mastery > Vers > Haste > Multi.

    Crit > Mastery is better than Mastery > Crit defensively and for DPS. If you go back in this thread there's some good discussion on this topic.

  9. #1729
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Marok View Post
    Crit > Mastery is better than Mastery > Crit defensively and for DPS. If you go back in this thread there's some good discussion on this topic.
    This is only true if you have a perfect control over your RPS and Active mitigation. As a beginner, I'd recommend Mastery > Crit > Vers., or even Mastery > Vers. > Crit. This will give you more room to fail.
    Once you have your AM and rage generation mastered, you can opt for a more advanced build such as Crit > Mastery.

    - - - Updated - - -

    One thing that is worth pointing out is that the difference between Mastery/Crit/Vers prioritization at a low level gameplay is extremely small -- it won't really make any significant difference. What will make a difference on the other hand is your Rage generation (your RPS rotation) and of course your Active mitigation. You should focus more on how to master those.

  10. #1730
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    This is only true if you have a perfect control over your RPS and Active mitigation. As a beginner, I'd recommend Mastery > Crit > Vers., or even Mastery > Vers. > Crit. This will give you more room to fail.
    How so? Crit is the better stat outside of SBlock. Newer players tend to have lower up-time on SBlock so Crit will serve them better defensively. Sure, running Crit > Mastery is proc heavy, but there's no reason to run Mastery just because of that.

  11. #1731
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Marok View Post
    How so? Crit is the better stat outside of SBlock. Newer players tend to have lower up-time on SBlock so Crit will serve them better defensively. Sure, running Crit > Mastery is proc heavy, but there's no reason to run Mastery just because of that.
    Like you said, a Crit build is more affected by RNG. Going Mastery/Vers is not the most optimal way to reduce damage, but it's the simplest way to do so. For a beginner it's usually more helpful. Also, the increase in TMI granted by Mastery with a lower ilvl gear tends to be more helpful than the raw DTPS decrease you get with low Crit.

    Being a beginner doesn't mean you're so bad that you can't even spam Shield Block. If that's the case, then it's quite pointless to discuss stat optimization.
    Rather, he'll have a hard time timing SB properly, and filling downtimes with Shield Barriers, which on itself makes a Crit build already less valuable -- since he's not using the increased RPS from more Enrage procs optimally.

    Going for a Mastery>Vers>Crit build removes that necessity -- he can still do well, even without mastering the Active Mitigation cycle. Once that bit is mastered he can opt for a Mastery>Crit build, then eventually Crit>Mastery.

  12. #1732
    Dreadlord GoKs's Avatar
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    Thanks for the response guys/girls... Will finish leveling today and then run a few dungeons and get to see how bad i really am, and then decide, I guess it will be difficult to see how bad I am if the healer is 720+ ilvl, since he will not struggle to keep me alive. Also I got the Purified Shard heirloom trinket... should I use it?

    For now I will go for mastery>vers>crit to be on the safe side.

    Thanks again.

  13. #1733
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GoKs View Post
    Thanks for the response guys/girls... Will finish leveling today and then run a few dungeons and get to see how bad i really am, and then decide, I guess it will be difficult to see how bad I am if the healer is 720+ ilvl, since he will not struggle to keep me alive. Also I got the Purified Shard heirloom trinket... should I use it?

    For now I will go for mastery>vers>crit to be on the safe side.

    Thanks again.
    I doubt you'll get anything better right away, so yes, use it.

    You shouldn't count too much on your stat priority to keep you alive though, like I said earlier, the difference is very low, and usually not noticeable, unless you're going for something very specific like rankings, and whatnot.

    Work more on your Shield Block+Shield Barrier management. That WILL make the difference.

    Some tips:

    *Shield Block is your most powerful ability against melee attacks. Shield Barrier is your most powerful ability against unblockable attacks (aside from CDs).

    *Yet, if you're being melee'd 100% of the time, you'll not be able to keep Shield Block up all that time. So you'll be most vulnerable when Shield Block will be recharging. During that time, use Shield Barrier to stay alive, with Demoralizing Shout for more stressful downtimes. Last Stand/Shield Wall are also there if need be.

    *Don't use Shield Block if you're not being melee'd. Better use it a second before a mob starts attacking you.
    This means you should not pop it right before Shockwaving a pack of mobs. Rather wait till there's 1 second left on your stun, then use Shield Block.

    *Don't sit on 2 charges of Shield Block if you're being exclusively melee'd. That's a big waste.

    *If you're taking more magical damage than physical, priority Shield Barrier over Shield Block.
    This means if you're facing a pack with 3 casters and 1 melee, use Shield Barrier exclusively (unless you have more rage than you can spend).
    If you're unsure what type of damage you're taking, start with a Shield Barrier, then rotate between Shield Block and Barrier, and stick with the one that appears to be the most effective until you can figure what's going on.

    *Integrate Spell Reflect in your Active Mitigation rotation against casters. It's powerful.

    *Don't hesitate to use Shield Barrier as an "oh shit" button. If your health suddenly drops (below 35%) better pop a "reactive" Shield Barrier, then worry about getting Shield Block back up if you're facing more physical damage than magical, or popping a Last Stand/Shield Wall if need be.
    Indeed, that reactive Shield Barrier can give your healer 2, 3 seconds to heal you back up. Popping a Shield Block might have reduced more damage over 6 seconds, but not necessarily over those 2, 3 decisive seconds, and would be completely useless against a magical attack.

    Good luck.

  14. #1734
    Dreadlord GoKs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    I doubt you'll get anything better right away, so yes, use it.

    You shouldn't count too much on your stat priority to keep you alive though, like I said earlier, the difference is very low, and usually not noticeable, unless you're going for something very specific like rankings, and whatnot.

    Work more on your Shield Block+Shield Barrier management. That WILL make the difference.

    Some tips:

    *Shield Block is your most powerful ability against melee attacks. Shield Barrier is your most powerful ability against unblockable attacks (aside from CDs).

    *Yet, if you're being melee'd 100% of the time, you'll not be able to keep Shield Block up all that time. So you'll be most vulnerable when Shield Block will be recharging. During that time, use Shield Barrier to stay alive, with Demoralizing Shout for more stressful downtimes. Last Stand/Shield Wall are also there if need be.

    *Don't use Shield Block if you're not being melee'd. Better use it a second before a mob starts attacking you.
    This means you should not pop it right before Shockwaving a pack of mobs. Rather wait till there's 1 second left on your stun, then use Shield Block.

    *Don't sit on 2 charges of Shield Block if you're being exclusively melee'd. That's a big waste.

    *If you're taking more magical damage than physical, priority Shield Barrier over Shield Block.
    This means if you're facing a pack with 3 casters and 1 melee, use Shield Barrier exclusively (unless you have more rage than you can spend).
    If you're unsure what type of damage you're taking, start with a Shield Barrier, then rotate between Shield Block and Barrier, and stick with the one that appears to be the most effective until you can figure what's going on.

    *Integrate Spell Reflect in your Active Mitigation rotation against casters. It's powerful.

    *Don't hesitate to use Shield Barrier as an "oh shit" button. If your health suddenly drops (below 35%) better pop a "reactive" Shield Barrier, then worry about getting Shield Block back up if you're facing more physical damage than magical, or popping a Last Stand/Shield Wall if need be.
    Indeed, that reactive Shield Barrier can give your healer 2, 3 seconds to heal you back up. Popping a Shield Block might have reduced more damage over 6 seconds, but not necessarily over those 2, 3 decisive seconds, and would be completely useless against a magical attack.

    Good luck.
    Thank you for this post. I will give it a try when I am back home and able to play, got to 100 and only waiting to be able to do some dungeons. This will be very helpful. Thanks again for all your help.

  15. #1735
    Deleted
    Hi, sorry if my english is not that good, it's not my primary language.

    I came back after a year break and decided to play my Prot War again. I played it since vanilla and decided to change for WoD but can't help to go back on it.

    I'm lvl 100 since a week and 706 ilvl. I was going for a Mastery > Crit opti but from what i read, with my XP during all those years on the char (exclusively VHL PVE with it) i should go Crit > Mastery right ? Or is this optimization reserved for a higher ilvl ?

    I checked some amory link from warrior i know and i saw all of them going full crit with DPS oriented trinkets. Are the dps trinket mandatory with this optimization ? For exemple Tuesday if HC Gorefiend trinket drops, should i need it ?

    Same with enchants, should i still run with a blackrock enchant on weapon or go for thunderlord?

    Thanks

  16. #1736
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rouedkaross View Post
    Hi, sorry if my english is not that good, it's not my primary language.

    I came back after a year break and decided to play my Prot War again. I played it since vanilla and decided to change for WoD but can't help to go back on it.

    I'm lvl 100 since a week and 706 ilvl. I was going for a Mastery > Crit opti but from what i read, with my XP during all those years on the char (exclusively VHL PVE with it) i should go Crit > Mastery right ? Or is this optimization reserved for a higher ilvl ?

    I checked some amory link from warrior i know and i saw all of them going full crit with DPS oriented trinkets. Are the dps trinket mandatory with this optimization ? For exemple Tuesday if HC Gorefiend trinket drops, should i need it ?

    Same with enchants, should i still run with a blackrock enchant on weapon or go for thunderlord?

    Thanks
    Whether you choose to go Crit>Mastery or Mastery>Crit depends a lot on how well you are doing with your Active Mitigation, and your gear vs the content you're doing. If you are comfortable enough with AM, not wasting rage where you could use it for Barriers during SB downtime, and even outgear your content, then yes, you can (and should) go Crit>Mastery.

    Still, theoretically, Mastery>Crit will allow you to smoothen damage more while Shield Block is active (= less spikiness in your damage intake), as Mastery gives more Critical Block chance than Crit gives Parry chance, and due to some other TMI reasons not worth going into right now (so you're essentially countering more attacks "when it actually matters" through Critical blocks).

    This is mainly why Mastery>Crit was favoured during T-17 progression, because back then, "spikiness" could still be an issue even with Shield Block active. This has something to do with the fact that people were less geared for progression, and didn't have trinkets like Warlord's Unseeing Eye/Anzu's Cursed Plume to greatly smoothen incoming damage.

    Still, Crit will allow you to reduce slightly more damage in total (because a parried attack nullifies the attack completely, not just by 60%).

    For obvious reasons, usually, it's better to go for less spikiness instead of less total damage taken. But like I said, nowadays, thanks to greater ilvls, and better trinkets, spikiness during Shield Block is often no longer an issue, making Crit>Mastery better in most cases.

    Crit>Mastery should also allow you to do a bit more damage. Again nothing extraordinary (a couple percentages at best), but it's still something.

    Anyways, this is what I've learned so far after countless discussion on this matter. Hopefully, it helps.

    PS:
    DPS Trinkets will not help your defense as will Tank trinkets. So unless incoming damage is not an issue at all in the content you're doing use Tank trinkets.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A quick SimC run to show how Mastery can be better for TMI (spikiness) reduction:



    The full result can be DL here : http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...70528587886895

    ---

    Also, with my current gear, Mastery is actually just as good as Crit in terms of DTPS :



    Full result : http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...29541412152287

    ---

    This means that in my case, when it comes to defense, there's pretty much no reason to go Crit. Mastery will provide slightly better results in most situations.
    Last edited by mmocd210ee9388; 2016-02-21 at 04:06 PM.

  17. #1737
    Dreadlord GoKs's Avatar
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    Thanks L Kebess.

    Mastery it is then. Any nice macros to use?
    Going to do proving grounds now, so I will prac there... actually a nice place to prac without letting any people die =P

  18. #1738
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    Kebess.. why don't you practice what you preach? You're in all Crit enchants and gems..

  19. #1739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordekae View Post
    Kebess.. why don't you practice what you preach? You're in all Crit enchants and gems..
    Mastery was used on Vel hari progression. My current gear is good enough to make survivability a non-issue.

  20. #1740
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    PS:
    Your sign says "Twitch.tv/ericn_tv for high level Prot Gameplay and theorycrafting!". It makes me wonder how comes you can't Sim these sorts of things and figure out your best build? This is pure curiosity really, nothing else.
    Just asking questions and confirming interpretation of results. Sometimes it is easier for me to ask quickly at work and then come home to see results. Literally no reason to bring this up.
    Twitch.tv/ericn_tv

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