6.0 PvE Ret Paladin Theorycraft & Discussion

[Xs]

It's not 15% straight up extra damage. You forget that it costs a trinket slot and the trinket you would replace is gonna be responsible for a good 10%* of your dps. So the trinket is at best 5% extra dps not counting the dps loss due to ramp up time.


*It would be nice if anyone had accurate numbers of what a trinket provides vs no trinket at all.

Both: 41,769 DPS
Trink 2: 38,587 DPS 8.6% decrease (tectus, fml rite? miss)
Trink 1: 37,651 DPS 9.9% decrease (vial miss)

Apparently not that hard at all, you did pretty well with your napkin

[Emrus]

Both: 41,769 DPS
Trink 2: 38,587 DPS 8.6% decrease (tectus, fml rite? miss)
Trink 1: 37,651 DPS 9.9% decrease (vial miss)

Apparently not that hard at all, you did pretty well with your napkin

Wow, didn't expect it to be that close. I notice that those trinkets ilevel 685 and 700 respectively, so it would be most fair to compare those to the normal version of Libram of Vindication, which at ilevel 705 provide 13.17% at 3 stacks.

It sure has a fair shot at being best in slot. But, I don't think the trinket alone will "fix" ret.

Being a trinket, we have to remember that if we have a boss it's not suited for, simply use something else.

Finally, considering that the trinket comes from the final boss, I'd expect the choice most would be faced with during most of progression is gonna heroic Libram vs an other mythic trinket. I would imagine a ilevel 735 trinket could get very close to 15% dps.

[Apecity]

Is there a point in which it becomes beneficial to have higher level gear rather than have the four piece bonus? I currently have 2 pieces of 700 ilvl gear with sockets that I could use as opposed to the 685 tier pieces with no sockets, but equipping them would cause me to lose my 4 piece. I would assume sticking with the 4 piece is better?

[Canitnerd]

Wow, didn't expect it to be that close. I notice that those trinkets ilevel 685 and 700 respectively, so it would be most fair to compare those to the normal version of Libram of Vindication, which at ilevel 705 provide 13.17% at 3 stacks.

It sure has a fair shot at being best in slot. But, I don't think the trinket alone will "fix" ret.

Being a trinket, we have to remember that if we have a boss it's not suited for, simply use something else.

Finally, considering that the trinket comes from the final boss, I'd expect the choice most would be faced with during most of progression is gonna heroic Libram vs an other mythic trinket. I would imagine a ilevel 735 trinket could get very close to 15% dps.

its % based, a 700 ilvl trinket gives the same % of damage to a 700 ilvl player as a 735 ilvl trinket gives a 735 ilvl player, all other things the same.

[RagnorZ]

@reghame im not sure why you think im being hostile. simply poking fun at everyone in this thread who want blizzard to completely change the entire spec into something different whenever we arnt top of the charts. wahh wahh wahh we dont do as much aoe as the best aoe class in the game wahh wahh wahh. if you dont like it dont play it, simple. i love ret pally and will play it to the end of time but right now it just isnt good. i can do everything on my ret that i can on my boomkin who is 9 ilvls lower.

just funny to see people suggest the world then when ret is good for 10 seconds of fame the same exact people complain about us needing a nerf. (pvp4piece)

Un-nerfing HoTR and DS (that were only gutted near the end of beta in preparation for the T17 set bonuses) is not completely changing the class...

660 pvp gear being better than brf mythic while fun was simple wrong and always going to be fixed.

[Deleted]

Is there a point in which it becomes beneficial to have higher level gear rather than have the four piece bonus? I currently have 2 pieces of 700 ilvl gear with sockets that I could use as opposed to the 685 tier pieces with no sockets, but equipping them would cause me to lose my 4 piece. I would assume sticking with the 4 piece is better?

The only situation in which dropping tier is worth it is when trading Normal-mode 4-set for Mythic WF offpieces, if I remember correctly.

[Xs]

Wow, didn't expect it to be that close. I notice that those trinkets ilevel 685 and 700 respectively, so it would be most fair to compare those to the normal version of Libram of Vindication, which at ilevel 705 provide 13.17% at 3 stacks.

685x2, RNGsus doesn't favour me I'm afraid, its probably close to the 10.5-11% mark with an equiv HC HC (thats gonna get annoying) trinket, so still its somewhere under a 5% static gain on a fight where its got uptime in the 90's, assuming for progression's sake that you have the lower tier class trinket compared to your choice of other trinkets, worst case scenario for it.

[Deleted]

Then you've clearly not raided enough mythic (previous heroic) because there's a lot of situations that would just make the 10sec buff fall off over and over.

Would be less of a problem if it procced off judgement, at least then you could keep it up when you have to range yourself (as you do on the odd fight in T18). But the main problem for me is this resetting on changing targets. Granted, that would render Double Jeopardy pointless if it was tied to Judgement.

[TKTank]

@reghame im not sure why you think im being hostile. simply poking fun at everyone in this thread who want blizzard to completely change the entire spec into something different whenever we arnt top of the charts. wahh wahh wahh we dont do as much aoe as the best aoe class in the game wahh wahh wahh. if you dont like it dont play it, simple. i love ret pally and will play it to the end of time but right now it just isnt good. i can do everything on my ret that i can on my boomkin who is 9 ilvls lower.

just funny to see people suggest the world then when ret is good for 10 seconds of fame the same exact people complain about us needing a nerf. (pvp4piece)

Sorry, but you're making yourself look really stupid.

It's a numbers tweak. It's aimed at making us use our AoE builder and AoE finisher *gasp* Not "completely change the entire spec into something different".

I'm sorry if you don't raid or your raid is really weird comp without boomkins, enhances, locks, fire m, combat rogues, warriors or if they're simply retarded, but currently by the time you can even land your first DS each and all of these classes are already head and shoulders ahead of us.

Many can even muilt-dot and/or cover a retardly bigger area then us...so, seriously, you have no clue at all.

With current numbers we still consider using CS sometimes instead of using HotR and that's why I suggested a mildly buff to it. I won't even touch in my proposed DS baseline damage buff (With the removal of EDS) because if you can't understand that by yourself I sincerely believe you don't even have a pally.

[Teroo]

Sorry, but you're making yourself look really stupid.

It's a numbers tweak. It's aimed at making us use our AoE builder and AoE finisher *gasp* Not "completely change the entire spec into something different".

I'm sorry if you don't raid or your raid is really weird comp without boomkins, enhances, locks, fire m, combat rogues, warriors or if they're simply retarded, but currently by the time you can even land your first DS each and all of these classes are already head and shoulders ahead of us.

Many can even muilt-dot and/or cover a retardly bigger area then us...so, seriously, you have no clue at all.

With current numbers we still consider using CS sometimes instead of using HotR and that's why I suggested a mildly buff to it. I won't even touch in my proposed DS baseline damage buff (With the removal of EDS) because if you can't understand that by yourself I sincerely believe you don't even have a pally.

But he is right.

If you think, that with these changes you would be able to cast more than 1 DS by the time adds are dead, you're retarded, and if you think that with EmpDS removal they would buff DS to the point where 1 DS would do damage comparable to locks/shamans/rogues/mages etc. you're even more retarded and have no fucking clue at all.

Solution to our AoE is tied to LH, not DS. Just buff damage of all our L90 talents by 100% (just to make other 2 talents remain the same compared to LH on single target), and make it to do damage over 6 sec istead of 14. Done.

[Deleted]

Solution to our AoE is tied to LH, not DS. Just buff damage of all our L90 talents by 100% (just to make other 2 talents remain the same compared to LH on single target), and make it to do damage over 6 sec istead of 14. Done.

By no means. The main problem with our AoE is that it isn't good for most of the actual boss encounters. It isn't weak in itself; where conditions exist that are good for us we are extremely strong. It's just that those conditions do not exist in the vast majority of encounters where there is some AoE required. Now, if they just buffed the damage on our AoE we would just do ridiculous damage on the encounters that do suit us.

[RagnorZ]

What encounter would favor ret aoe though? constant 2 or 3 target cleave.. nope, add waves every few minutes... nope, heaps of crap spread out around the room... nope.

Our aoe and cleave was far better in 5.4 when HoTR, DS and SoR didn't hit like wet noodles and were usable at 2-3+ targets baseline and didn't depend on procs for % damage increases.

[Fredzilla]

What encounter would favor ret aoe though? constant 2 or 3 target cleave.. nope, add waves every few minutes... nope, heaps of crap spread out around the room... nope.

Our aoe and cleave was far better in 5.4 when HoTR, DS and SoR didn't hit like wet noodles and were usable at 2-3+ targets baseline and didn't depend on procs for % damage increases.

SoR is actually a LOT stronger (relative to SoT) now than before. We needed like 5 or 6 targets or something to warrant its use in SoO, as opposed to the 2-3 we need now. Comment not applicable to HotR/DS though. And we aren't terrible at sudden burst aoe a la beastlord, if we aren't QUITE the strongest. Even if you don't get procs, you can pool HP and 4pc and still get at least a couple of DS's off, and adds of that nature don't live too terribly long anyway.

[Teroo]

Our L90 talents are simply bad. They need a buff, while ES is acceptable the other 2 talents are good awful.

Compare them to warrior's:
ES - Avatar - ES is ~4% of our dmg, Avatar increases warrior's damage by ~7%
LH - Bladestorm - Lets look at thogar best parses. LH is ~4% of dmg, Bladestorm is ~55% of dmg. LH average hit is 9k * 7 ticks it's 63k dmg in every target. Bladestorm average hit is 35k for main hand and 20k for off hand * 6 ticks each it's 210k+120k = 330k dmg in every target.

Bladestorm deals 5 times as much damage as LH. LH needs a buff clearly. HoTR needs a buff too.

I have another crazy idea, didn't think much about this so this might be OP :P
What about making FV buff much shorter, make it last for ~10sec, or even less, and make DS to not consume the buff, so we can spam it for this ~10sec.
Thoughts?

[Sarenas]

Being the spec as it is, i am actually quite happy to have something like hekili to ease my dps rotation, so i can more focused on the actual fight itself. Does this make me a worse player? Maybe. Do i care? Not really. There is not much difference between this and using a WA setup that lets you see everything you need to know. You still have to play yourself and make decisions where they are needed. Playing strictly like Hekili shows doesnt do you any good.

I so agree with this tho.

[TKTank]

But he is right.

If you think, that with these changes you would be able to cast more than 1 DS by the time adds are dead, you're retarded, and if you think that with EmpDS removal they would buff DS to the point where 1 DS would do damage comparable to locks/shamans/rogues/mages etc. you're even more retarded and have no fucking clue at all.

Solution to our AoE is tied to LH, not DS. Just buff damage of all our L90 talents by 100% (just to make other 2 talents remain the same compared to LH on single target), and make it to do damage over 6 sec istead of 14. Done.

Amazing solution! Seriously...we use LH in first wave of adds, then next one comes and we keep there sitting ducks. Then third waves come we still sitting there like stupid fucking ducks waiting HoPo and EDS to do something. Then next wave comes and so forth until your miracle amazing awesomeness pumper LH comes out of CD.

I'm clearly the retard here. Certainly. Without a doubt. Hmm-hmm.

I won't even touch on your comparison to Bladestorm. The game doesn't work on a spell-by-spell comparison basis and doing such just shows how much you understand of overall balance.

We need an AoE mechanic system that allows:

- To keep mobile (if adds switch places or need to be moved, for example like Sinestra whelps, the lich encounter in IceCrown...)
- To have a short cycle (From decision to AoE > first AoE finisher damage output being ~5-6sec, so adds like Darmac can be dpsed)
- Not tied to luck (Depending on a proc to AoE goes against the very basis of WoW raids structure with set time windows for AoE)
- Comparativelly effective (Using your spot as Ret to go into AoE be worth comparable to other specs)

OOOORRRRR scrap us from AoE land and make us stronger in other niches like ST or Cleave and that's it. We accept we can't AoE anymore and can be left into a priority target for ST DPS or interrupts or whatever, while others go AoE stuff and such.

[Deleted]

By no means. The main problem with our AoE is that it isn't good for most of the actual boss encounters. It isn't weak in itself; where conditions exist that are good for us we are extremely strong. It's just that those conditions do not exist in the vast majority of encounters where there is some AoE required. Now, if they just buffed the damage on our AoE we would just do ridiculous damage on the encounters that do suit us.

It's weak cause you need to waste everytime one gcd and 3 holypower for an singletarget finisher to get one !!! aoe finisher. In bad moments with bad luck you need 6 gcd's and in this time most of the targets are dead. I really had often enough moments where I could use one buffed DS with with 5hp cause I didn't get any procs. The good thing is: in 6.2 we won't have that rng shit again. The bad news: This will end up in an sustained and balanced aoe moment ( till this it's good) -> but with much less damage than now. No more procs and everytime an tough hp build up. The base aoe damage is totally weak and the buffed aoe damage is to strong at this moment. That's why we got that super retarded mechanic with FV, to be balanced on an looong process and rng. Or in other words: It is balanced if it's your lucky day.

The DS buff from FV should be removed with buffing the base DS and balance the FV damage to let it cleave atleast 2-3 additional targets ( our worst fights at this moment ). Another option could be a passive DS Buff if you choose FV or FV triggers an DS if you use it. And ya ... remove EmpDS. This could be a step in the right direction. Ofc there are still other problems with our aoe...but in my opinion FV is a big problem too, cause this is our t100 aoe talent.

[Deleted]

It's weak cause you need to waste everytime one gcd and 3 holypower for an singletarget finisher to get one !!! aoe finisher. In bad moments with bad luck you need 6 gcd's and in this time most of the targets are dead..

It's strong when you have a decent number of adds reasonably close together (even if they move around a bit) that will not die quickly. Under those circumstances, bad luck (or even good luck) streaks even themselves out. However, you may only get one or two such situations in a tier where that happens which is why it is weak overall. However, buffing the damage of those abilities doesn't help anything; the mechanics are still the same and will still favour us having a decent number of adds reasonably stacked for a long time and, under those conditions, our AoE will be overpowered.

[Deleted]

It's strong when you have a decent number of adds reasonably close together (even if they move around a bit) that will not die quickly. Under those circumstances, bad luck (or even good luck) streaks even themselves out. However, you may only get one or two such situations in a tier where that happens which is why it is weak overall. However, buffing the damage of those abilities doesn't help anything; the mechanics are still the same and will still favour us having a decent number of adds reasonably stacked for a long time and, under those conditions, our AoE will be overpowered.

If they don't die quick enough you need some luck anyway. On average we are acceptable in this moments but not one of the best specs. I would call that balanced. But there are as always some specs who are out of control which makes us look bad. So in my opinion even this moments aren't fine with our aoe.

And yes. Buffing the aoe with numbers would make it overpowered and it will be still uneven and unreliable. Some mechanics and the talent design are the biggest blockers to balance our base skills.

[Monzsterr]

I'm wondering, if they got rid of all this buff stuff and simply made Final Verdict (the talent) buff divine storm with out the need to weave FV (the ability) in-between and empowerd divine storm was only a free proc and not a double powered 1.5 size one, basically make it act like the T-16 bonus only, would this be a decent solution?