US and coalition forces can use our bases for attacks against 'Islamic State'- Turkey

[Stelio Kontos]

Can you see the logical fallacy in your statement? When we oppress (does not necessarily imply a genocide or massacre which is the case for Kurds), it can not be justified. But when they engage in direct terrorist acts, it can be justified. You are a biased.

If they blow up a bus full of civilians that's terrorism. The problem is your government views any type of violent resistance as terrorism.

It's not terrorism to kill troops occupying your land.

[Huntermyth]

first and foremost i have to state that i am turkish but not nationalist ( not even the slightest ) and current government means less than nothing to me. never voted for erdogan ( and never will ) , i don't support any of his ideas and i believe i am a pretty common left-winger / freedom supporter that you can find in any other country.

while i believe Yvaelle's map / ideas look ideal on paper, it will never happen in the way it is described. remind you, not saying that the map or conflicts or land sharing won't happen, they may, but the sharing or even negotiations will not happen in the way he / she foresaw / guessed. let's see whys and hows below :

a ) it is true that erdogan influenced or maybe brain washed masses ( without brain ) but there is a strong nationalist tradition in turkey and when / if erdogan aggrees with such a land loss ( name it whatever you want, average joe will see it that way ) he will dive on to his nose before he can realize and i suspect a huge internal conflict may happen. people have that potential and that may be the spark to light that fuse.

b ) kurdistan, as a state is a big taboo for your average turk because of indoctrinized history lessons of the past and people generally has no clue what kurds really want. they probably see each other as ghosts of the past and because of that while they may look like they can live together in a relative peace; in truth, neither of the parties trust the other truly and will use each others' weaknesses without hesitation ( < this part is about politicians, not the common people ) people may get used to the term in time but kurds can't express themselves ( or some 3rd parties don't let them express themselves, this is a possibility too ) so only interaction on the long run is conflict.

p.s: none of the countries on this world will accept a land loss, no matter what the cause is. this is another truth that needs to be reminded here.

c ) this part is the most important one ( for me and people like me ) and what that is, erdogan will do anything to remain sitting on the big seat. all the other people around him are puppets, they don't have their own opinions, voices, you name it. in order to keep this relative power over walking deads, he can negotiate all and any of the possible outcomes without hesitation. usa probably knows that and it seems they are using his weak spot pretty accurately ( not blaming them ) and while he will probably make nationalist speeches around his limited crowd, he is open to all kinds of negotiations. i know that, a lot of people knows that but i am not trying to understand their state of mind anymore. whatever is happening will continue to happen in the foreseeable future it seems and i don't give a flying fuck to be honest.

wrapping up and tl;dr : if it is up to politicians ( namely erdogan ) yvaelle's map is a possibility. if it is up to common people, it will never happen. ( without a major, and i mean it, MAJOR conflict )

[Kuntantee]

If they blow up a bus full of civilians that's terrorism. The problem is your government views any type of violent resistance as terrorism.

It's not terrorism to kill troops occupying your land.

Are you implying PKK did not kill any civilians? There is a reason why their leader (currently prisoner in Turkey), Abdullah Ocalan, is known as child-killer.

[Thunderball]

Turkey is acting very pragmatic, there is nothing new about it. Their utmost interest is to become the leader of the region. Initially US and Israels goals to execute the lybian scenario in Syria (which would weaken Iranian position in the region) was much welcomed because 1) there was a huge amount of support for the plan, and Turkey was interested to work with Saudi, Qatar and US, aiming for their support of future projects. 2) it was in Turkey's own interest, other than the fact that they would get a highly unstable region on their border, but it seems like they were content with that while having Iraq in a pretty much same state, and were eyeing a militaristic approach themselves.

Now we have ISIS as a tool supported by a large party of benefactors. The goal was to create an islamic state in Syria, but Syria proved to be a hard one, and ISIS proved to be not so much a tool, meaning their own goal was more important than the continuing support, so they diverted to an easier plan which is doing the same with Iraq and then finishing Syria. Now that is not so much in Turkey's interest because not only the have a radical islamic mess looming across their border, but also that mess is now pretty unhappy with their former supporters and there is no guarantee that Turkey wouldnt be next (mostly because ISIS cant do much to other supporters other than chopping off their citizens heads). So Turkey is just helping the inevitable happen faster now, and it's their best bet.

[Wildtree]

I don't know if anyone is interested in this.

If ISIS were to attack Turkey, Turkey could invoke the NATO treaty and all NATO countries would have to declare war.

During the Cold War, Turkey was a close ally of the US. The political climate has changed in Turkey over the last 20 years of course.

The problem has little to do with the last 20 yrs... It has to do with the feud that's going on for much longer...
In this fight, Turkey would have to support the Kurds. And that is something they absolutely don't wanna do. The uprising, the terrorism from the late 70s/mid 80s isn't forgotten. The PKK is still in the Turk's heads.
Complicated situation.
I think the Turks should trust the Kurds. Best way to improve peace and end an ongoing feud.

[Stelio Kontos]

Are you implying PKK did not kill any civilians? There is a reason why their leader (currently prisoner in Turkey), Abdullah Ocalan, is known as child-killer.

Are you implying all Kurdish violence in the name of freeing themselves from your government is terrorism?

[Wildtree]

Are you implying PKK did not kill any civilians? There is a reason why their leader (currently prisoner in Turkey), Abdullah Ocalan, is known as child-killer.

There's nothing to argue. Both sides have been brutal..
Anyone even trying to defend either side must be out of their mind.

[Kuntantee]

Are you implying all Kurdish violence in the name of freeing themselves from your government is terrorism?

So it's okay to kill civilians and that does not make them terrorists? Your previous post states otherwise:

If they blow up a bus full of civilians that's terrorism.

[Notchris]

Saving that city could mean saving PKK. It's easy for some of you to say "SAVE THEM, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR"...well, some of those Kurds are members of PKK. What do you expect man?

To avoid saving SOME PKK, you're willing to sacrifice an entire city of some 44k people.

Fucking nice.

[Stelio Kontos]

So it's okay to kill civilians?

No, I was quite clear, blowing up civilians is terrorism.

That also goes for Turkish planes dropping bombs on villagers and Turkish troops using villages for artillery practice.

All I stated was not all Kurdish attacks are terrorism. Gunning down occupying troops is not terrorism.

[Kuntantee]

To avoid saving SOME PKK, you're willing to sacrifice an entire city of some 44k people.

Fucking nice.

If you are so eager to help Kurds, bring your troops and shit to Turkey. We are willing to give our logistic support. I do even support a air-strike of some sort but not ground operation.
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That also goes for Turkish planes dropping bombs on villagers and Turkish troops using villages for artillery practice.

Source please.

All I stated was not all Kurdish attacks are terrorism. Gunning down occupying troops is not terrorism.

I am not sure what you are trying to argue. Is PKK terrorist organization or not?

[Stelio Kontos]

If you are so eager to help Kurds, bring your troops and shit to Turkey. We are willing to give our logistic support.

Nah, your government, which your population elected, has or still is enabling ISIS. You hold responsibility for the actions they take as a result of your support.

The blood of Kobani's innocent Kurdish civilians is partly on your hands, as your government both enabled the men who are committing the atrocity and is actively having its soldiers sit by and watch the bloodbath happen from a nearby hill.

What's next, selling tickets to watch?

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I am not sure what you are trying to argue. Is PKK terrorist organization or not?

Both the PKK and the Turkish military are guilty of terrorizing each other's civilians.

[Aeno]

I am not sure what you are trying to argue. Is PKK terrorist organization or not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party

"listed as a terrorist organisation by several states and international organisations."

[Yvaelle]

Wrong. Kurds and Turks do not peacefully coexist in Turkey and east of Ankara is not pretty much Kurdish. Question sources.

Well, as far as a source for the peaceful coexistence between Turkish Kurds and Turkish Turks - Turkey is not in the midst of a civil war for Kurdish independence - so I call that peaceful.

I think Erdogan is an asshole - I don't think he's willfully enabling ISIS to kill off Kurds (but I do think he may be avoiding confrontation with ISIS until ISIS/Assad have sufficiently wounded one another for Turkey to swoop in and clean up them both). He could have executed Ocalan - everyone wanted him to - he chose to imprison him in the hope of smoothing relations with the Kurds - siccing ISIS on the Kurds would go against his previous efforts.

My source on saying east of Ankara is generally Kurdish, is my experiences in Turkey (Istanbul and Ankara - but no I never went east of Ankara).


Giving the Kurds a Kurdistan would end a lot of violence, and give Turkey a buffer to other threats.

[Wildtree]

If you are so eager to help Kurds, bring your troops and shit to Turkey. We are willing to give our logistic support.

I am not sure what you are trying to argue. Is PKK terrorist organization or not?

The PKK turned into a terrorist organization, and the reason why it became one is entirely Turkey's own fault. Tread the people like shit, kick em like dogs, and some of them bite back.
Fuck that bullshit, really..... STOP the hostility right there.
The Kurds have shown every will and effort to end the Turkish/Kurdish feud, over the last 12 month......
It's on Turkey to show them (and us, the rest of Europe/World) that they're a worthy partner.
And on the Kurds to show that they're not all terrorists (which they don't have to prove to any rational person anyway).

[Huntermyth]

quoting atsawin26 :

'' Both the PKK and the Turkish military are guilty of terrorizing each other's civilians. ''


this is the closest thing to truth i saw in this entire topic so far. neither parties are throwing flowers to each other.

[Cybran]

Source please.

http://www.economist.com/node/21542459

Turkish F-16 war planes dropped bombs on a group of Kurdish civilians just south of the Turkish border in the mountains of Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, killing 34 of them. Security officials in Sirnak, a Turkish town near the site, blamed a lack of co-ordination between the civilian and military authorities. “The governor [of Sirnak] had no idea what had happened until hours after the bombing,” said one.

The Turks have killed 40 000 Kurds in the last 40 years.

[Aeno]

http://www.economist.com/node/21542459

The Turks have killed 40 000 Kurds in the last 40 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%...ict#Casualties

Estimate of 30,000. Obviously those harmed or imprisoned are astronomically higher.

[Kuntantee]

Nah, your government, which your population elected, has or still is enabling ISIS. You hold responsibility for the actions they take as a result of your support.

The blood of Kobani's innocent Kurdish civilians is partly on your hands, as your government both enabled the men who are committing the atrocity and is actively having its soldiers sit by and watch the bloodbath happen from a nearby hill.

What's next, selling tickets to watch?

Wish it didn't happen. I did not elect current government and I do not support current government's support for ISIS. But no man, we're not gonna save terrorists. Kurds are reaping what they sawed. They actively supported an ethnic terrorist group. They are not gonna get the most needed help when they need.

Both the PKK and the Turkish military are guilty of terrorizing each other's civilians.

Dude what terrorization are you talking about? Are you going to link sources for your absurd claims?

[Stelio Kontos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%...ict#Casualties

Estimate of 30,000. Obviously those harmed or imprisoned are astronomically higher.

Yeah, Turkish military claims 29k "insurgents" killed.

That's not a claim I would stick much credence on.

"According to human rights organisations since the beginning of the uprising 4,000 villages have been destroyed,[56] in which between 380,000 and 1,000,000 Kurdish villagers have been forcibly evacuated from their homes.[234] Some 5,000 Turks and 35,000 Kurds,[56] including 18,000 civilians[54] have been killed, 17,000 Kurds have disappeared and 119,000 Kurds have been imprisoned by Turkish authorities.[55][56] According to the Humanitarian Law Project, 2,400 Kurdish villages were destroyed and 18,000 Kurds were executed, by the Turkish government.[234] Other estimates have put the number of destroyed Kurdish villages at over 4,000.[77] In total up to 3,000,000 people (mainly Kurds) have been displaced by the conflict,[58] an estimated 1,000,000 of which are still internally displaced as of 2009."

40,000 is most likely far closer to right than the low-ball estimate from the side doing the killings.

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Dude what terrorization are you talking about? Are you going to link sources for your absurd claims?

According to human rights organisations since the beginning of the uprising 4,000 villages have been destroyed,[56] in which between 380,000 and 1,000,000 Kurdish villagers have been forcibly evacuated from their homes.[234] Some 5,000 Turks and 35,000 Kurds,[56] including 18,000 civilians[54] have been killed, 17,000 Kurds have disappeared and 119,000 Kurds have been imprisoned by Turkish authorities.[55][56] According to the Humanitarian Law Project, 2,400 Kurdish villages were destroyed and 18,000 Kurds were executed, by the Turkish government.[234] Other estimates have put the number of destroyed Kurdish villages at over 4,000.[77] In total up to 3,000,000 people (mainly Kurds) have been displaced by the conflict,[58] an estimated 1,000,000 of which are still internally displaced as of 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93PKK_conflict#Casualties

You wouldn't call tens of thousands dead, tens of thousands missing or imprisoned, and millions displaced as terror and collective punishment?