The Bonus Armor

[Clearation]

I wanted to ask about the Bonus armor that will be on gear. Ive seen that it will be on necks, rings, cloaks,trinkets, and shields. now this could be me but all those things seems like something all tanks can have until it come to shields. Wouldn't that give warriors and pallys more armor over monk, deathknight, and bear tanks since none of them can equip shields. I guess i'm asking how does that translate over in game, like do the other classes have more armor out right and so that why shields will have bonus armor what.

[Deleted]

they brought down the armor value of shields by quite a bit.

[Xequecal]

Bonus armor is actually far more valuable to monks than it is to any of the other tanks because armor has diminishing returns. Monks, with by far the lowest armor value to begin with, therefore derive a lot more benefit from it.

[Dreyen]

Bonus armor is actually far more valuable to monks than it is to any of the other tanks because armor has diminishing returns. Monks, with by far the lowest armor value to begin with, therefore derive a lot more benefit from it.

diminishing returns is deceptive, you still get a linear benefit from each point of armor. DR is only there because 1% damage reduction at 0% is much weaker than 1% damage reduction at 98%: one is a 1% survival boost while the other is a 100% survival boost.

[Xequecal]

diminishing returns is deceptive, you still get a linear benefit from each point of armor. DR is only there because 1% damage reduction at 0% is much weaker than 1% damage reduction at 98%: one is a 1% survival boost while the other is a 100% survival boost.

I was wondering if someone was going to post this. Armor still has diminishing returns despite this. 1000 armor is 2.11% DR, which is obviously a 2.11% decrease in damage taken from having 0 armor. Going from 25000 armor (35.08% DR) to 26000 armor (35.98% DR) is a 1.36% reduction in damage taken. Armor has diminishing returns regardless.

[Rockets]

#1: Total armor is not and does not need to be the same across classes. Absolutely warriors and paladins will have more armor on their gear than anyone else. Other abilities, passives, stance modifiers, etc etc all combine together to give a total effective damage reduction, and that is what's tuned to be even for all the tanks.

To put it another way, warriors and paladins need more armor on their gear than monks because they don't have shuffle.

#2: Armor doesn't have diminishing returns, I wish people would stop repeating this when all the math about armor was done literally years ago. Armor gives EH, and it's completely linear. (EDIT: stuff in grey is wrong, see later posts for clarification.) Each point of armor reduces damage by a fixed percentage relative to the damage you were already taking. For example let's say going from 0 armor to 1000 armor gives you 10% DR on your character sheet. If a warrior's already at 50% DR from armor, gaining 1000 more armor will only give 5% DR on the character sheet..... but taking 45% damage instead of 50% damage is still a 10% damage reduction.

[Dreyen]

I was wondering if someone was going to post this. Armor still has diminishing returns despite this. 1000 armor is 2.11% DR, which is obviously a 2.11% decrease in damage taken from having 0 armor. Going from 25000 armor (35.08% DR) to 26000 armor (35.98% DR) is a 1.36% reduction in damage taken. Armor has diminishing returns regardless.

Really? I was always under the impression that they made DR to not make the stat exponentially better, i dont understand why armor would need to become worse as you get more armor.. are you certain you've got the right numbers?

[Totaltotemic]

#1: Total armor is not and does not need to be the same across classes. Absolutely warriors and paladins will have more armor on their gear than anyone else. Other abilities, passives, stance modifiers, etc etc all combine together to give a total effective damage reduction, and that is what's tuned to be even for all the tanks.

To put it another way, warriors and paladins need more armor on their gear than monks because they don't have shuffle.

#2: Armor doesn't have diminishing returns, I wish people would stop repeating this when all the math about armor was done literally years ago. Armor gives EH, and it's completely linear. Each point of armor reduces damage by a fixed percentage relative to the damage you were already taking. For example let's say going from 0 armor to 1000 armor gives you 10% DR on your character sheet. If a warrior's already at 50% DR from armor, gaining 1000 more armor will only give 5% DR on the character sheet..... but taking 45% damage instead of 50% damage is still a 10% damage reduction.

This is all true, however it is important to note that on the attack power front Bonus Armor is a flat number rather than a percentage, so while the damage reduction per point can be boiled down and directly compared, the AP portion is quite a bit more difficult.

Just so we're all on the same page here though, Bonus Armor is by far the best stat you could ever have, it's literally like 4 times better than Versatility. If your cloak/ring/neck/trinket doesn't have bonus armor at level 100, you're basically wearing cloth instead of leather and you'll get wrecked.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the new armor formula does actually have some actual diminishing returns, but it's so small that it's irrelevant in terms of Bonus Armor.

73 Bonus Armor effect on my premade Prot Paladin

73 Bonus Armor effect on premade BrM

And here you can see that the drop in effectiveness is only 0.17%. So maybe if you can get 1000 Bonus Armor on a BrM it will only be worth 998.3 Bonus Armor for a Paladin. Such diminishing returns.

___

Work:

Damage reduction from armor = (Armor)/(Armor + K)
K for level 100 player = 3610
Damage taken with armor = |1-damage reduction from armor|
Bonus armor effect = Damage taken with bonus armor/damage taken without bonus armor

Full equation: |1-[(Armor + bonus)/(Armor + bonus + K)|/|1-[(Armor)/(Armor + K)]|

Actually the K value for a 103 attacker is 5234. Also in-game tooltip shows "armor" as base plus bonus, so that's kind of annoying.

Anyways, here's a spreadsheet for bonus armor reduction vs a level 103 attacker: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...76Jwy9siOWq30/

[Rockets]

Yeah, looking at the math again, it's actually EH that's linear in armor, and not the DR% itself.

DR = A/(A+K)
Damage taken = 1 - DR
= 1 - A/(A+K)
= ((A+K)-A) / (A+K)
= K / (A+K)

Effective health = 1/damage taken
= 1 / (K / (A+K))
= (A+K)/K
= A/K + 1

In other words, you get 100% EH for free (ie. your actual max health), and every K armor after that you get effective health equal to 100% of your health bar. So with K armor you'll have 50% DR, 2K is 67%, 3K is 75%, etc.

Against a 103 attacker then it takes +5234 armor for +100% EH, so each 1 armor is worth 0.0191% of your max HP. If you have 300k HP then each 1 armor is worth 57.3 HP; iirc at level 100 you get 60 HP per 1 stamina, for comparison.

[Totaltotemic]

Yeah, looking at the math again, it's actually EH that's linear in armor, and not the DR% itself.

DR = A/(A+K)
Damage taken = 1 - DR
= 1 - A/(A+K)
= ((A+K)-A) / (A+K)
= K / (A+K)

Effective health = 1/DR
= 1 / (K / (A+K))
= (A+K)/K
= A/K + 1

In other words, you get 100% EH for free (ie. your actual max health), and every K armor that you effective health equal to 100% of your health bar. So with K armor you'll have 50% DR, 2K is 67%, 3K is 75%, etc.

Against a 103 attacker then it takes +5234 armor for +100% EH, so each 1 armor is worth 0.0191% of your max HP. If you have 300k HP then each 1 armor is worth 57.3 HP; iirc at level 100 you get 60 HP per 1 stamina, for comparison.

What makes it so confusing though is that it's 100% EH combined with all of the other crap that reduces your damage taken, so it's really 100% of your total non-armor EH. That means versatility and other blanket damage reductions have to be factored in too.

[Rockets]

What makes it so confusing though is that it's 100% EH combined with all of the other crap that reduces your damage taken, so it's really 100% of your total non-armor EH. That means versatility and other blanket damage reductions have to be factored in too.

Yeah, that's all multiplicative though, so it doesn't matter what order you do it in. If you have +100% EH from armor then you have double the EH of someone with no armor, as long as all the other modifiers are kept equal.

[Deleted]

Oh, I forgot to mention that the new armor formula does actually have some actual diminishing returns, but it's so small that it's irrelevant in terms of Bonus Armor.

73 Bonus Armor effect on my premade Prot Paladin

73 Bonus Armor effect on premade BrM

And here you can see that the drop in effectiveness is only 0.17%. So maybe if you can get 1000 Bonus Armor on a BrM it will only be worth 998.3 Bonus Armor for a Paladin. Such diminishing returns.

___

Work:

Damage reduction from armor = (Armor)/(Armor + K)
K for level 100 player = 3610
Damage taken with armor = |1-damage reduction from armor|
Bonus armor effect = Damage taken with bonus armor/damage taken without bonus armor

Full equation: |1-[(Armor + bonus)/(Armor + bonus + K)|/|1-[(Armor)/(Armor + K)]|

The decrease in damage taken is (bonus mitigation)/(1-old mitigation)=(new mitigation-old mitigation)/(1-old mitigation)=1-((1-new mitigation)/(1-old mitigation)) = 1- your full equation :
+73 armor on a paladin
+73 armor on a monk

It's 15% better

+1000 armor on a paladin
+1000 armor on a monk

It's 12,9% better

So it's more like 1000 bonus armor on a BrM is worth about 1150 bonus armor on a paladin.

Also :

#1: Total armor is not and does not need to be the same across classes. Absolutely warriors and paladins will have more armor on their gear than anyone else. Other abilities, passives, stance modifiers, etc etc all combine together to give a total effective damage reduction, and that is what's tuned to be even for all the tanks.

Yes, but total mitigation is armor mitigation*stance mitigation*versatility mitigation*etc
It means the higher your passives/stances modifiers/etc are, the better is the armor, because it's multiplicative.
I don't know what changed in the passives/abilities/etc because I moved house very recently, but I think it will be in favor of monks again.


All this said, the difference isn't big enough to bring a loot drama.

[Totaltotemic]

Oh yeah, I forgot the 1- on either end, still, hardly worth mentioning. As long as it's twice as good as any other stat it's not really important unless you start seeing 30-40% differences in value.

[Clearation]

Well thanks for the answer I guess i was just wondering if how balanced it would be among the tanks.

[Ulfhedinn]

People still say armor has diminishing returns because blizzard still uses the tooltip that says it does which confuses people. They really need to change the tooltip so people know that getting more armor isn't hurting them or not that great. If you are a tank more armor is pretty much always a good thing. Much like stamina it isn't something every tank will want to aim for but every tank should be happy with any they get. Its like a bonus.

The easiest way to say it is "1000 armor always increases your time until death by the same amount"... even then that can be confusing.