Why is Vendetta Still not on the Rogue ?

[Pool of the Dead]

I cannot believe Vendetta is still a debuff on a target instead of a buff to the rogue and it is still removed by invulnerabilities.

Garbage.

Because a flat 30% damage increase on an already powerful class would be retarded and as "assassins" it makes sense you pick one target you get the bonus from.

Stop whinging.

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Comparing SnD to RSK is like comparing a Volkswagen to a Yamaha. A Yamaha piano.
Our combo points disappear. Theirs dont.
A better example would be Inquisition for Rets. But that got removed because maintenance buffs are boring. Oh well..

Comparing Chi/holy power to combo points is also silly.

[Feali]

Because a flat 30% damage increase on an already powerful class would be retarded and as "assassins" it makes sense you pick one target you get the bonus from.

Stop whinging.

Ok buddy. If you're not a Rogue this won't get many positive responses.

BTW: Avatar.

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Comparing Chi/holy power to combo points is also silly.

How? I can understand Holy Power being different to an extent because you can't spam the abilities. But Chi is basically just a better version of Combo Points.

[Pool of the Dead]

How? I can understand Holy Power being different to an extent because you can't spam the abilities. But Chi is basically just a better version of Combo Points.

Chi is built at a fixed rate and every move has a set amount required to use.

Many Rogue passives cause crits/AoE's to generate multiple Combo points per energy spent and finishing moves can be used regardless of 1-5 combo points + energy cost.

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Ok buddy. If you're not a Rogue this won't get many positive responses.

I raided as a rogue for most of my first 6 years of WoW and always keep one at max level to play with through each expansion.

[Verain]

Because a flat 30% damage increase on an already powerful class would be retarded and as "assassins" it makes sense you pick one target you get the bonus from.

The first part is up for debate, and more importantly, plenty of classes have mechanics that are absolutely broken in pvp... but they work to mitigate them. If you are seriousface gonna come in here and tell us that the reason we have vendetta on the target is that it would be BROKEN IN PVP (and for a spec that hasn't had any pvp showing in literal years), that's fucking ludicrous. No way, full stop.

That other thing? That's the actual reason. It's meant to be a weakness of the spec, and each spec and class is meant to have strengths and weaknesses.

Comparing Chi/holy power to combo points is also silly.

Why? Why is that "silly"? Those mechanics are literally combo points with different graphics and less goddamned bugs.

[ymirsson]

Chi is built at a fixed rate and every move has a set amount required to use.

Which does not invalidate the notion of being superior by itself.

Many Rogue passives cause crits/AoE's to generate multiple Combo points per energy spent and finishing moves can be used regardless of 1-5 combo points + energy cost.

"Many"? I can think of 2. Which still do not make anything overpowered, as one is limited by an proc cooldown and the other is a WoD perk on Fan of Knives.
And using any finisher without 5 CP is just no.
Monk finishers do not even cost energy while rogues get to wait because of?

[ShmooDude]

No, they are actually on the target, but they change as you change, but if you don't have a target you can't see how many combo points you have.

Wrong, they are actually on the player. They are still there, even if you have no target and your old target is gone. They do decay over time though if you are out of combat.

Fixing the Combo Points to show when you don't have a target is a UI issue, and a stupid design decision on their part, but functionally, the combo points are on you, not the target. For example, if a mob despawns, you keep your combo points; before the change, you couldn't cast Slice and Dice in this circumstance.

An addon can be designed to completely and accurately track how many combo points you have without a target. It does require a workaround though, when it should be as simple as asking wow how many combo points you have (which you can't actually do without a target, thus you have to track it yourself on the client end; doable, but requires way more code).

ElvUI currently has this functionality (optionally, though, not enabled by default) and I'd bet there's another few addons that do. As I said, it should be this way in the base UI but I guess they figured that'd shock rogues too much or something...


On topic... I'm guessing the answer is "flavor." It does fit the assassination toolkit and makes sense concept wise. As long as you're balanced around it I don't really see a problem.

[Feali]

Monk finishers do not even cost energy while rogues get to wait because of?

Flavor, duh.

But seriously: Monks are what Rogues could have been (without Stealth)

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Wrong, they are actually on the player. They are still there, even if you have no target and your old target is gone. They do decay over time though if you are out of combat.

Fixing the Combo Points to show when you don't have a target is a UI issue, and a stupid design decision on their part, but functionally, the combo points are on you, not the target. For example, if a mob despawns, you keep your combo points; before the change, you couldn't cast Slice and Dice in this circumstance.

An addon can be designed to completely and accurately track how many combo points you have without a target. It does require a workaround though, when it should be as simple as asking wow how many combo points you have (which you can't actually do without a target, thus you have to track it yourself on the client end; doable, but requires way more code).

ElvUI currently has this functionality (optionally, though, not enabled by default) and I'd bet there's another few addons that do. As I said, it should be this way in the base UI but I guess they figured that'd shock rogues too much or something...


On topic... I'm guessing the answer is "flavor." It does fit the assassination toolkit and makes sense concept wise. As long as you're balanced around it I don't really see a problem.

Requiring an addon to play is just ridiculously stupid.
Combo Points still vanish out of the blue. Try the 3rd boss of Shadowmoon Burial Grounds for a more recent example. The moment he submerges your combo points are gone. POOF. No SnD. No Recup. Just gone. So don't tell me they're on the player. The most certainly are not.

[Pool of the Dead]

"Many"? I can think of 2. Which still do not make anything overpowered, as one is limited by an proc cooldown and the other is a WoD perk on Fan of Knives.
And using any finisher without 5 CP is just no.
Monk finishers do not even cost energy while rogues get to wait because of?

Another point why Chi and Combo points are different.

Rogues abilities that build Combo points still deal very good damage which LEAD to a even stronger Finisher.
Monk Chi is generated by jab, which is the lowest hitting Melee ability in the game and spinning Crane kick which generates only 1 chi over its 3 sec casts and ONLY if you hit 3 or more targets. That Chi is then used to power our BASIC attacks i.e. Tiger Palm/Blackout kick and our on CD bigger hitting attacks.

Chi and Combo points are largely different because of this. To compare them it would be to say Imagine rogues only built Combo points by using Shiv. You needed 2 combo points to then use Sinister Strike/Hemo/Mutilate, and every 15 secs you could choose to use 3 CP to do 1 eviscerate.

That is the difference between CP and Chi. Anyone that still wants to argue they are the same are plain and simply wrong.

[Necrolepsy]

Increases your damage by 30% and makes your current target visible to you even through blah blah blah.

I don't know, I'm sure they can come up with some word magic to make it clear. It would be nice if the damage buff stayed with us but I don't lose sleep over it either.

Blah blah blah blah is not an explanation. If you have a suggestion make it properly, otherwise don't even post. It's fine as it is.

[Arcanimus]

No, they are actually on the target, but they change as you change, but if you don't have a target you can't see how many combo points you have.

So while it is more convinient than what we had before, it is still far from what Monks and Paladins have.

They are not on the target. They are on the rogue, but the UI element is on the target because that's where it has been since forever.

[Feali]

Anyone that still wants to argue they are the same are plain and simply wrong.

Great discussion, bruh.

Pretty sure Hemo hits wetter than Jab. But since you decided the discussion is over...

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They are not on the target. They are on the rogue, but the UI element is on the target because that's where it has been since forever.

Let's just they are neither. They are just there. Because they still disappear which wouldn't happen if they were on the Rogue. But they also stay because of a magical reason which wouldn't happen if they were on the target.

[Pool of the Dead]

Great discussion, bruh.

Pretty sure Hemo hits wetter than Jab. But since you decided the discussion is over...

Hemo hits for no where near as low as Jab AND it has a DoT component and as I said BRUH there isn't a need for discussion since they aren't the same.

If you could not even understand that from what I typed and simply decided that the only thing you could "try" to disagree with was the damage difference of Jab vs Hemo means that you are showing me correct anyway.

Also comparing Jab to Hemo, when Backstab is the primary move used by the spec that HAS hemo, where Backstab hits for more that our Chi spenders, whilst generating Combo points and Costs LESS energy than jab just further goes to show you that you are indeed wrong.

[Feali]

Hemo hits for no where near as low as Jab AND it has a DoT component and as I said BRUH there isn't a need for discussion since they aren't the same.

If you could not even understand that from what I typed and simply decided that the only thing you could "try" to disagree with was the damage difference of Jab vs Hemo means that you are showing me correct anyway.

Oh there's many things I wanna argue about coming from your post. But combo points is not the point (haha) of this thread. It's Vendetta. And it's pretty hard to argue with someone that just outright says "your plain wrong" (yes this is paraphrasing not quoting; I feel like I have to explain everything to you).

Please leave the Rogue forum. There's nothing constructive coming from you.

[Pool of the Dead]

Oh there's many things I wanna argue about coming from your post. But combo points is not the point (haha) of this thread. It's Vendetta. And it's pretty hard to argue with someone that just outright says "your plain wrong" (yes this is paraphrasing not quoting; I feel like I have to explain everything to you).

Please leave the Rogue forum. There's nothing constructive coming from you.

Actually everything I said was constructive, since the OP himself brought up why Rogues are so "woe is me" compared to Monks and how Monks somehow have the "superior" combo points. My entire post was how one wasn't superior to the other since they were entirely different you tried to argue the point and I gave you an exact reason why you are wrong and now since you have no actual argument to fight back against it you are just backtracking.

So I think I will stay in the rogue forums, since it seems I understand the way Combo Points work better than you do.

Also nice try at condescension in the bolded part. Since ironically you think I need everything explained to me, when you seem to know nothing yourself.

[Feali]

Actually everything I said was constructive, since the OP himself brought up why Rogues are so "woe is me" compared to Monks and how Monks somehow have the "superior" combo points. My entire post was how one wasn't superior to the other since they were entirely different you tried to argue the point and I gave you an exact reason why you are wrong and now since you have no actual argument to fight back against it you are just backtracking.

So I think I will stay in the rogue forums, since it seems I understand the way Combo Points work better than you do.

Also nice try at condescension in the bolded part. Since ironically you think I need everything explained to me, when you seem to know nothing yourself.

Actually the OP himself did say absolutely NOTHING about Monks. Which shows your reading comprehension.
The thing that started the Monk vs. Rogue discussion was me by saying you can't compare RSK to SnD because well.. you can't.

And btw: Jab vs. Hemo

[Pool of the Dead]

Actually the OP himself did say absolutely NOTHING about Monks. Which shows your reading comprehension.
The thing that started the Monk vs. Rogue discussion was me by saying you can't compare RSK to SnD because well.. you can't.

And btw: Jab vs. Hemo

As I said before, Hemo also has the DoT component, You are also using a 2H weapon vs 1hander on rogue, Jab is ALWAYS our primary Chi builder single Target, Backstab is the PRIMARY builder for the class that has Hemo, Hemo Costs 2/3'rds the energy.

Compare Backstab to Jab aswell. I would be quite fine with Jab costing 10 energy less and dealing 100% more damage.

I will agree that the OP didn't say that, I got him confused with someone else in the thread who made a few post. My apologies.

[Feali]

As I said before, Hemo also has the DoT component, You are also using a 2H weapon vs 1hander on rogue, Jab is ALWAYS our primary Chi builder single Target, Backstab is the PRIMARY builder for the class that has Hemo, Hemo Costs 2/3'rds the energy.

Compare Backstab to Jab aswell. I would be quite fine with Jab costing 10 energy less and dealing 100% more damage.

And now this is where I shine: Backstab has a positional requirement. Jab doesn't.
End of discussion.
Good night, New Jersey. You were great. No but seriously I'm going to bed now.

[Pool of the Dead]

And now this is where I shine: Backstab has a positional requirement. Jab doesn't.
End of discussion.
Good night, New Jersey. You were great. No but seriously I'm going to bed now.

Our main damaging ability does though, Blackout Kick (for the 20% damage DoT). Eviscerate doesn't. Also Backstabs positional component is EVERYWHERE but the front, I can't think of any bosses in the entire of MoP where you could not attack from the back/sides.

[Feali]

Our main damaging ability does though, Blackout Kick (for the 20% damage DoT). Eviscerate doesn't. Also Backstabs positional component is EVERYWHERE but the front, I can't think of any bosses in the entire of MoP where you could not attack from the back/sides.

Ok. So no sleep yet.
You have a glyph for that. Even without it heals you and still deals damage. Backstab can't be used AT ALL.
There are other aspects than raiding. Sides doesn't help when you're face tanking something and in a world where osses still have the need to turn to cast shit.

[Kael]

Enough about monks and rogues as a side-by-side comparison. This really has nothing to do with the topic and is just the two of you arguing. Take it to PMs if you really want to continue it.


TO CLARIFY ABOUT COMBO POINTS:

Mechanically, combo points are still on the rogue's target. There is an auto-redirect function on switching targets, which is probably part of why you can't see CP without a target, still. This means that targets which die retain CP on the corpse, but targets which vanish (disintegrate, disappear, change form, whatever-else-that-isn't-dying) cause combo points to vanish as well. The single change in function is that combo points now auto-redirect (off-GCD, no cooldown, and no key press). On the back end, very little changed. When people say that CP are still on the rogue - they are. The auto-redirect fixes some issues rogues have had with target swapping, but does not fix the age-old bug of vanishing CP, or allow the UI to display combo points on player (there's no way to query the server for it without a target), which is why people bring it up.