Furious Strikes or Sudden Death?

[Pet0r]

hi
short question
which is better for tg fury furious strikes or sudden death?

[Murlocbait]

I believe FS is technically superior (though may depend on gear), but many of us find it god awful to play. SD is more fun (imo) and the numbers are close for that tier.

[Krazzorx]

After the fury hotfix nerf I believe it was determined they are real, real close.

Personally I love FS but Ik I'm in the minority.

[Archimtiros]

FS would be better if you had no lag, no latency and instant reaction time, but since we are not machines plugged into the Matrix Sudden Death is realistically better.

[Nachturnal]

I much prefer FS. It's a pretty good rage dump while pushing out great damage.

[Ferg]

Short answer: FS is better on a no-latency, no-error, 100% uptime fight, by a few hundred dps.

Realistic answer: SD is better because, as Arch said, we're not robots. Also, inb4 someone says "you can play well enough to make FS better on live", no, you really can't.

[jarbulldog]

I was thinking that SD will pull ahead at 92 because of improved execute.

[Zyrhon]

I was thinking that SD will pull ahead at 92 because of improved execute.

Most likely yes

[Valech]

Most likely yes

"do you like apples or bananas?"
- OP

"yes"
- you

[Xanthan]

Short answer: FS is better on a no-latency, no-error, 100% uptime fight, by a few hundred dps.

Realistic answer: SD is better because, as Arch said, we're not robots. Also, inb4 someone says "you can play well enough to make FS better on live", no, you really can't.

This all is just hand-waving nonsense. Latency is not a significant factor unless you've disabled the lag tolerance queuing for whatever reason or are facing higher than typical latency. Errors? Like, hitting the button too many times or something? Error doesn't really factor into a talent that reduces the rage cost of an ability, unless you're just commenting on the fact that having to hit the button more often to manage rage is somehow overly difficult. Uptime percent clearly doesn't favor either talent.

If anything, reaction time hurts SD since procs can be lost to not using them quick enough before a re-proc.

[Archimtiros]

This all is just hand-waving nonsense. Latency is not a significant factor unless you've disabled the lag tolerance queuing for whatever reason or are facing higher than typical latency. Errors? Like, hitting the button too many times or something? Error doesn't really factor into a talent that reduces the rage cost of an ability, unless you're just commenting on the fact that having to hit the button more often to manage rage is somehow overly difficult. Uptime percent clearly doesn't favor either talent.

If anything, reaction time hurts SD since procs can be lost to not using them quick enough before a re-proc.

That isn't hand waving at all, he was repeating exactly what I said not an hour prior, and something that I have written mini dissertations on multiple times.

Latency, and to a larger degree, reaction time becomes a factor due to the conflict of globals caused by Headlong Rush. In 5.4, with a 4.5s CD on Bloodthirst and 1.5s GCD on abilities, you can comfortably fit 2 globals in between Bloodthirsts with very little push back.

With Headlong Rush however the cooldown of Bloodthirst is compressed, along with the GCD. Wild Strike further complicates this by halfing its GCD to 0.75s. You would still think this would fit perfectly fine, however the kicker is that Headlong Rush does not reduce the GCD of Wild Strike further. This means as you gain in haste, you are hitting Bloodthirst more often but you are still using Wild Strike at the same rate, which invariably causes push back on BT (undermining the whole point of reduce its cooldown to begin with).

Furious Strikes exacerbates this because it actually reduces the rage cost too much. Because of it, you Wild Strike much more often and have difficulties dropping Rage fast enough. Indeed getting "lucky" with streaks of Bloodsurge procs actually hurts you, as it leaves you without enough globals to properly dump Rage and Raging Blow charges.

Now, the point; the longer you take to use Wild Strike, the more DPS Furious Strikes looses. Since we are not robots and we don't play inside the server rooms, lag and reaction time adds up. Even though it is only measured in tenths of a second, because we Wild Strike so much with Furious Strikes, that time adds up. As for custom lag tolerance, it doesn't work as well as you'd think. Even under the new system WoW has issues dealing with <1s GCDs.

The latest versions of SimCraft accurately model realistic use of Wild Strike (as an elite player with very little latency and a quick reaction time), with the GCD varying between 0.75 and 0.81s, averaging at about 0.78 (prior to which it always used an exact 0.75s which frankly is not realistic.) This causes Furious Strikes to drop under Sudden Death in pure DPS value.

[Bizerk]

If people want to do less dps while also hurting their fingers you should let them. I still wish blizzard abandoned the <1sec gcd nonsense ages ago though.

[Deleted]

I love UQT the most tbh. FS causes major pain my my left arm and SDs proc rate can be so fucking annoying sometimes.

Im not saying I like UQT that much, Its just the most fun one imo.

[Archimtiros]

If people want to do less dps while also hurting their fingers you should let them. I still wish blizzard abandoned the <1sec gcd nonsense ages ago though.

I'm not advocating they shouldn't. Honestly the different talents are still fairly close to eachother (within a couple hundred DPS at the high end); close enough that you won't see huge disparity, enough so that you shouldn't feel bad choosing one talent over another if you like it more, which is exactly what the design team was aiming for. I simply answering the question, Sudden Death is better than Furious Strikes, in a variety of ways. That doesn't mean you shouldn't play what you enjoy though.

- - - Updated - - -

I love UQT the most tbh. FS causes major pain my my left arm and SDs proc rate can be so fucking annoying sometimes.

Im not saying I like UQT that much, Its just the most fun one imo.

Honestly I do too, and Collision hates me for saying it. I think it is terrible for the spec, but the only way that makes it feel even remotely playable at lower gear levels in my opinion. Sudden Death is a close second. I love it when it procs often, but damningly annoying because of its awkward proc rate. Sometimes it won't proc at all, other times I will get 5 procs in a row, beyond all reason!

This more than anything is why it needs to be RPPM. A high RPPM, I would shoot for it proccing once every 6 seconds or so, to give Fury that feel of engaging proc gameplay. This sounds high, but really why not? Tuning concerns aside, the point of "choose the talent that lets you play how you want to" is to create real difference between them. Choosing a talent that gives procs should create true proc gameplay, not give you one proc every 30 seconds that you might see once in a blue moon.

I have never understood half measures in this regard. Unquenchable Thirst allows for complete GCD lock, and up to 3x as much BT use. Furious Strikes more than doubles Wild Strike use. Sudden Death should add a significant amount of procs to feel like a true change in playstyle.

[Krazzorx]

Speaking of SD not being rppm, with a flat % proc chance I could see it causing lots of pvp complaints. Even though it will be uncommon, like the Ele shaman Echo of the Elements + mastery procs gimping people wasn't that common, people getting back to back to back SD procs should have relatively the same effect.

RPPM would solve that too.

[Archimtiros]

Speaking of SD not being rppm, with a flat % proc chance I could see it causing lots of pvp complaints. Even though it will be uncommon, like the Ele shaman Echo of the Elements + mastery procs gimping people wasn't that common, people getting back to back to back SD procs should have relatively the same effect.

RPPM would solve that too.

It will go RPPM eventually, just likely not anytime soon.

[Deleted]

Honestly I do too, and Collision hates me for saying it. I think it is terrible for the spec, but the only way that makes it feel even remotely playable at lower gear levels in my opinion. Sudden Death is a close second. I love it when it procs often, but damningly annoying because of its awkward proc rate. Sometimes it won't proc at all, other times I will get 5 procs in a row, beyond all reason!

This more than anything is why it needs to be RPPM. A high RPPM, I would shoot for it proccing once every 6 seconds or so, to give Fury that feel of engaging proc gameplay. This sounds high, but really why not? Tuning concerns aside, the point of "choose the talent that lets you play how you want to" is to create real difference between them. Choosing a talent that gives procs should create true proc gameplay, not give you one proc every 30 seconds that you might see once in a blue moon.

I have never understood half measures in this regard. Unquenchable Thirst allows for complete GCD lock, and up to 3x as much BT use. Furious Strikes more than doubles Wild Strike use. Sudden Death should add a significant amount of procs to feel like a true change in playstyle.

SD as RPPM would be amazing.

[Argeln]

It will go RPPM eventually, just likely not anytime soon.

Shouldn't someone tweet Celestalon about this? Should be made RPPM imo.

[pkm]

Most likely sudden death as everyone is saying.

I'm finding fury after the patch weird though. Sometimes im swimming in so much rage i just cap easily, in which furious strikes seems better and sometimes im real rage starved.

[Archimtiros]

Shouldn't someone tweet Celestalon about this? Should be made RPPM imo.

Re-read what I said as a statement of fact and not a suggestion.