Suppression of 10 heroic: PvE content wide enough?

[kamuimac]

I'll miss skype raiding with nine close friends Oh well, an era is over.

There is no going back now - next 2 tiers will either make mythic raiding bloom or will kill it off - blizzard made a decision for the players - i know many people happy cause they prefer easier 25 man format with much less personal responsibility and mistakes which are hiddden by large crowd - but at the same time i know a lot of people who decided to not raid mythic next tier - some of them already quit the game some me included are going strickly social since we have no problem to pug and clear normal/hc on alts without a schedule there is no point to be in rooster anymore //shrug and we can just log in whenever we liek and perform on lv much above new hc there is no point to do much - we will see very soon if it iwll be healthy for raiding scene or will be a disaster.

And pls dont make it into 20 man will be harder - its pure bs - the reason why people prefered 10 mnan was wastly cause people prefer to play in closer enviroment where we understand each other better we know each other better - i see this already since my guild went 25 man in june we have 3 7-8 man groups who stick toghether and spend time in 1 channel only during raid - outside of raid we have nothing in common and highly doubt that the guild will survive in current shape more then 2 months of real progress since the goal of those 3 groups are compeltly differnet - 1 group is all about progress at all cost 2nd is about progress but having fun while doin it not about numbers and perfromance and 3rd group is there only to fill out missing spots cause their performance is nowhere on mythic lv -_- this is a recipe for disaster. and many many guilds will meet the same problems very soon when they wont be doin content by overgearing it by 20 itlvs -_-

Luckily mythic guilds will always require 20.

u mean all those guilds who only got garry post 6.0 and are now advertising themselves as 14/14 mythic teams but just after htis they earch for +/- 10 spots for team ? ye gl joining one of those they will go definetly veyr far next tier without overgearing content

most guilds wont step into mythic untill at least 2nd-3rd month mark after raids will be open - those who give people false hope that they will step into mythic in week 2 of raiding but took 2-3 months to clear every previous tier are straight lieing to people - yes there are some hardcore guilds which will do it - but most of guilds are not like this.

[vo1ture]

There is no going back now - next 2 tiers will either make mythic raiding bloom or will kill it off - blizzard made a decision for the players

I'm wondering if Blizzard could suddenly turn around and introduce Mythic 10m (I don't think it will happens in WoD but maybe later). As you said, it will be highly dependent on what happens next 2 tiers...
I'm still thinking that there will be a large amount of people unsatisfied with the PvE content. As in Mop or Cata, even if you were far from good you could still find some challenge doing heroic such as Morchock/Yorsahj/Ultraxion back in Dragonsoul.
Now when you clear heroic, you're done (if you don't wanna go Mythic). And as far as I'm concerned, I've always cleared the "former normal mode" the first / the second week...

[Deleted]

On the one hand, I think it's a shame you can't attempt the highest difficulty and highest rewarding content in a small group any more. I always preferred smaller raid groups for the atmosphere and individual responsibility aspects. But that said, I completely understand the reasoning behind only having a single size at max difficulty of content. The dual 10 and 25-man system just created too many arguments, too much drama and a ridiculous amount of tuning issues, and took something away from the competitive high end raiding environment.

I personally would have preferred 15-man being the single size, but I also can see how 20-man was a better compromise since a lot of hardcore raiders still see bigger raids as being the peak.

I do think there is a slight missing link that's going to be there for people who are former 10-man raiders and who can't round up a full 20-man but are too skilled/experienced for "Heroic" and will clear it in a week or two. But at least the flexible raid system in Heroic mode means that if you do decide to expand your roster up to 20 people it's MUCH easier, logistically, to do that over the course of a few weeks than it used to be back in the day if you tried to jump from the small raids to the big raids (in TBC and WotLK for example).

I wanted to answer to the thread, but ^this^ post pretty much sums up all my thoughts on the matter.

[ttak82]

OT: Kae's post is a great one.

I'm wondering if Blizzard could suddenly turn around and introduce Mythic 10m (I don't think it will happens in WoD but maybe later). As you said, it will be highly dependent on what happens next 2 tiers...

how about: Mythic 10 Man = Mythic versions of the 5 man challenge mode dungeons but expanded to 10 man. Reward = Tmog Gear only + another special mount

Tning issues aside, space requirements would be a challenge as most 5 mans are cramped for a 10 man setting.

[Deleted]

I love the fact that it's one raid difficulties only now, for reasons such as this.

know many people happy cause they prefer easier 25 man format with much less personal responsibility and mistakes which are hiddden by large crowd

The 10 man setting won't have the '25man is easier, waaa' excuse to hide behind to justify their performance. Likewise, the 25man setting won't have the '10 man is easier, waaa' excuse to justify their performance.

Forum moderators win.

[Tipton]

The 10 man raiding system introduced in Cata was bad for the game. Trying to balance around it led to things like the raid lock-out system (can't have those 25 man guilds double dipping loot in 10 man), class homogenization (every melee must have an interrupt) and the death of casual raiding (No more easier 10 mans). And you could even argue we've got the loss of 'easy' 10 man content to blame for the introduction of LFR.

Whilst it suited the a very small majority of guilds (like the OPs) it destroyed most of the casual guilds. Since Cata I've seen a continuous churn in 10 man guilds, with one usually popping up every month - and rarely lasting an entire raid tier, small guild sizes are not stable.

Mythic is basically a complete repudiation of the the raiding system brought in with Cataclysm. Blizzard are trying to get back to the system they had in Wrath, with the added bonus of flexible raid sizes for non-Mythic difficulties. Personally I think it will be a better system, the only downside being that not many guilds have survived he lack of content for 14 months.

[Deleted]

Content is never enough after clearing it for the first time.

[kamuimac]

Whilst it suited the a very small majority of guilds (like the OPs) it destroyed most of the casual guilds. Since Cata I've seen a continuous churn in 10 man guilds, with one usually popping up every month - and rarely lasting an entire raid tier, small guild sizes are not stable.

And bigger guilds are easier to maintain ? u must be either joking or never had to be recruit officer for 25 man raid team - i have seen so many guilds already folded and died cause of failed project "lets go 25 man in preparation of WoD" - i play on big server - and almost all guilds which werent at least 12/14 hc died out cause people jumped ship to 14/14 hc guilds which swapped to 25 man - when WoD hits shit will hit the fan on larger scale cause there will be no longer overgearing content totaly - there will be no longer we can carry some dead weight just so that raid happened

u can laugh from me that i see it only in dark colours that im not optimist but i see it going into only 1 direction - mythic guilds will be more and more specialised and better but at the expense of being more closed and much less achievable goal for most of community and eveyrbody else will just unsub or just stop even trying to get into mythic as soon as they clear it on hc cause there will be no longer "casual" mythic approach - nobody sane will want to constantly recruit to the 20 man raid teams which just dip slightly in mythic progress - recruting for hc 10 man was already nightmare before - now recruiting for guilds which dont have a chance to clear unnerfed content - thats just not gonan happen :/

[Deleted]

Mythic is basically a complete repudiation of the the raiding system brought in with Cataclysm.

Unfortunately the Cata raid system did irreparable damage to the guilds in most realms. I know my old guild that had roots going back to vanilla is not going to be coming back, nor are the majority of the old guilds. Personally I don't trust Blizzard to not have another total fuckup in the future, so I'm not going to put in the effort of running a guild in their game ever again.

Having said that, I hope Mythic is a first step in a more major change. In particular, I hope there will be a completely separate set of Mythic content that brings back the old WoW progression model (from dungeons to raids). Clearly they need to put the major lore in the "accessible" model, but aside that they should have a mythic progression model. I.e., Mythic dungeons without LFG that are similar in scope and difficulty to lvl 60 vanilla dungeons. Only mythic gear can be used in mythic content, and you get your first set from pre-quests and professions, and getting that set serves as an attunement to the mythic content. No welfare gear, no gear resets, and you have to kill the last boss of a tier to attune your guild to the next tier.

[Wilderness]

I love the fact that it's one raid difficulties only now, for reasons such as this.



The 10 man setting won't have the '25man is easier, waaa' excuse to hide behind to justify their performance. Likewise, the 25man setting won't have the '10 man is easier, waaa' excuse to justify their performance.

Forum moderators win.

Amen. One less thing for people to get up in arms about and less bickering about how whichever size you do is actually the hardest.

And it allows Blizzard to tune Mythic exactly how they want it, which is a win for Mythic raiders as well, as there aren't different sizes that get in the way of balancing.

[Deleted]

And it allows Blizzard to tune Mythic exactly how they want it, which is a win for Mythic raiders as well, as there aren't different sizes that get in the way of balancing.

Due to the flex modes, they're still stuck with having to design fights that scale down to 10 mans. It's one big limiting factor in making interesting fights. For example, they couldn't make Kael'thas fight today since it can't be meaningfully scaled down to 10 man. Hopefully the next step they take is to have completely separate raids for mythic so that they can design more epic fights that are not limited by having to scale down to 10.

[Wilderness]

Due to the flex modes, they're still stuck with having to design fights that scale down to 10 mans. It's one big limiting factor in making interesting fights. For example, they couldn't make Kael'thas fight today since it can't be meaningfully scaled down to 10 man. Hopefully the next step they take is to have completely separate raids for mythic so that they can design more epic fights that are not limited by having to scale down to 10.

That's true to a degree, but I don't think its that limiting because Mythic, like Heroic used to, will have all new/different mechanics and abilities, and all of that will be tuned specifically for what they want the 20 man fight to be. Sure, at the basic level fights will have to be scale-able from 10 to 30 people, but its not as big of a deal because 10 man normal and 10 man heroic are not intended to be the same difficulty as Mythic. 10 man heroic and 25 man heroic (pre-WoD) were supposed to be the same difficulty, but that never played out in practice, nor was it realistically possible.

There needs to be some sort of decent up-tick in challenge as you go from normal to heroic, then on to Mythic, and in a perfect world on normal/heroic it wouldn't matter if you had 10 people or 25 people, but we know that at least some fights will be easier or harder with larger and smaller groups. Hopefully those differences won't be too big to keep things equal for people who only do normal or heroic, but for Mythic raiders at least that is not a concern anymore and that's a good thing for those who will progress in Mythic.

[Slant]

I have seen a lot of doom and gloom in this thread and I am somewhat surprised. Haven't the trenches of 10m v 25m not shown everyone how dumb the split was in the first place? One of the biggest reasons why I'm still here and actually interested in WoD is because Blizzard has finally seen sense and stopped the madness. And for once, they actually came up with a decent compromise. Mythic raiders are secluded in their 20m bubble, which is good for them, and everyone else can choose the size they like for that evening, making it actually tailor made for casual guilds.

To the one saying the next 2 tiers will show if it's bloom or boom... it'll succeed. That much is guaranteed. We don't even need to go into the first tier to know that this is the best move Blizzard has made for raiding in the past 4 years. It removes a lot of bickering, unfair tuning, silly reasons to homogenize classes and above all... it enables Blizzard to introduce more boss mechanics, because they can focus on one size.

And for the progress raiders among us... *smiles* now we'll see who truly rocks the boat. One size, one difficulty...

[Deleted]

And for the progress raiders among us... *smiles* now we'll see who truly rocks the boat. One size, one difficulty...

Chances are you'll still need to clear at least heroic to gear up for mythic every tier, so it's still not true progression raiding. If they take the next logical step, mythic-only raids, then we will have progression raiding back. Hopefully they'll even make mythic-only 5-mans so we can have some skilled casual content in the game again.

[Slant]

Chances are you'll still need to clear at least heroic to gear up for mythic every tier, so it's still not true progression raiding. If they take the next logical step, mythic-only raids, then we will have progression raiding back. Hopefully they'll even make mythic-only 5-mans so we can have some skilled casual content in the game again.

You have challenge modes? They were quite entertaining for a couple of weeks, I found. As for "true progression", meh... everyone has a different opinion about what that is. And also, everyone has to decide for himself how to play the game. But right now I think Blizz are making a really good compromise. The whole 10/25 fiasco couldn't have gone on like this. It was terribad for the community and for Blizzard's design process.

10m are bitching, but then... that's what they always did when it didn't go their way. They'll adapt. And then we can all have fun together.

[Deleted]

You have challenge modes?

I never saw the point in them, and they just don't interest me at all.

As for "true progression", meh... everyone has a different opinion about what that is.

It's quite easy to define, and not really a matter of opinion. True progression is when defeating some content gives you access to new content that you couldn't see any other way. In today's WoW you're guaranteed to see all the content, thus no true progression, just grinding the same content in increasing difficulty levels.

And also, everyone has to decide for himself how to play the game.

I wish that was true. Unfortunately Blizzard today doesn't let me do that. I have to do the same raid instance at the same time as everyone else, and my only "choice" is how many difficulty levels I want to grind that raid in. I can't decide to just do 5 mans like I did in vanilla, because everything now is LFG-zerg and all the content is wasted in a night or two.

But right now I think Blizz are making a really good compromise.

Not good enough to bring me back to WoW. If they made mythic-only dungeons and raids with vanilla/TBC style true progression, I might give it a try.

[Relapses]

Not good enough to bring me back to WoW. If they made mythic-only dungeons and raids with vanilla/TBC style true progression, I might give it a try.

True progression?

Less than 1% of players were able to see 60%+ of the content Blizzard produced during Vanilla/BC. This type of progression will never be re-implemented as it goes against one of the core design philosophies Blizzard began to develop during WotLK. (Additionally, WotLK was also WoW's most popular expansion, both in terms of player approval and subscription levels.) They want players to experience their content, even if it is a nerfed, extremely easy version of it.

Mythic is the best course of action Blizzard could take at this point. It eliminates the need to continuously design encounters around the 10/25 paradigm and it consolidates cutting edge to one singular, unwavering difficulty setting. You can complain about the size of the raid necessary for Mythic until you're blue in the face; but at the end of the day, 10M guilds were given almost a year to bolster their rosters in preparation for it.

[Deleted]

Less than 1% of players were able to see 60%+ of the content Blizzard produced during Vanilla/BC.

So what? I never saw a single raid in vanilla, yet I was perfectly happy. "Seeing all the content" is not and should not be any kind of goal.

Mythic is the best course of action Blizzard could take at this point.

It's a start. If they start producing mythic-only raids and dungeons, then we get best of both worlds: true progression and "everyone sees everything".

[Leih]

So what? I never saw a single raid in vanilla, yet I was perfectly happy. "Seeing all the content" is not and should not be any kind of goal.

WoW and MMOs in general have moved on a lot since those days. That kind of extreme exclusivity would not work any more, and WoW would die off pretty quickly after that kind of change

[nekobaka]

People i've been speaking to are thinking Mythic will be harder than old heroic and I have to agree, considering there's now only one size to balance for. We also think the old normal and flex will be a lot easier however due to flex sizing. Tbf those people that still want to raid the hardest content won't have any trouble finding somewhere to do it.

I can see it likely ramping up as well and potentially being more interesting. Tired of seeing certain mechanics limited or not showing up anymore due to having to design around 10 man. Blizzard can do things like more split up group roles to handle different areas of room with their own healer. 10 man makes those mechanics quite clunky and sensitive to group composition. You cant really have fights like KT and Vashj in a 10 and likely not 15 man setting. One of the most used mechanics of having to spread out still is trivialized in 10 man while still an issue of concern for 25 man. Balance between raid sizes generally comes down to making compromises of one thing is harder for one size with another thing being harder for the other size and Blizzard still fails with that.

True progression?

Less than 1% of players were able to see 60%+ of the content Blizzard produced during Vanilla/BC.

Such odd numbers when talking about two end raids. Raids are also a very tiny sliver of story content. Still only a minority of raiders saw all the raid content in WotLK with just a minority raiding despite the year long content drought and nerfs. The majority just didnt raid in WotLK and players was happy even Blizzard was happy with that at least at that time.