Shaco is toxic

[Duronos]

Said no high elo player ever, really though no high elo player I talk to thinks Shaco is a toxic champion yet every Bronze through Gold (some low Plat) think he is. Morello is going to completely gut him out like they did to Sion. By the way, old Sion was actually a lot harder to play at a high level than many thought, he had a point and click stun but to really get enough damage out of it your moves you had to combo it with a shield that requires you wait four seconds before it explodes. What I'm trying to say is, people think because something is generally easy to use once you're able to means it's bad.

It's not, in fact not every champion has to be like Ahri. There is in fact a lot of skill needed to abuse stuff like the old Sion combo because once you got up to higher elo's people see through it and you need to think of ways to mind game them. If I were Nidalee or Kassadin main, I'd be happy with the reworks they did for them because they kept the champion the same for the most part but put a slightly new twist to them. Sion was not played AD but any Sion main but because next to nobody plays Sion as a main he gets completely deleted from the game and replaced with "Sion" if you can even call it that.

My point is, cater your reworks to the people who actually give a shit about the champion they play a lot of because people who just play the champion here and there don't really care in the long run. Sion was never played AD and with that said AP should have been the main focus with an AD option on the side that was more gimmicky since that's how the Sion mains played him.

Going back to Shaco, he's not toxic, the nerfs toned him down a lot and by nerfs I mean years ago. "He has free flash with stealth" that costs 90 fucking mana and once you give blue over to your mid laner you have to be careful about just using it as mana regen is slow and mana goes down fast on Shaco early on. "It's really easy to gank on him", no it's really not the higher you go up, people can often read into it. Where's my proof you might ask? Alright so here I am playing ranked on Shaco and finding a gank can be quite tough sometimes, I play normals and guess what... Gank after gank after gank and I get kills on each one.

Shaco isn't toxic, it's you not adjusting to how he plays. I never go boots of mobility in ranked because it's just too risky since it's pretty much ganking and no farming. In normals I spam that shit and get away with it so hard because players don't adjust and then they say "tryhard Shaco" to which I often want to respond but I don't because it's apparent they don't want to learn. You guys want know how to beat a Shaco? DON'T PUSH YOUR LANE. His jungle clear is meh so forcing him to jungle or to invade your jungle is what you want to do. Forcing a Shaco to invade is actually a great thing as often not you just have a pink in your inventory just in case he tries to escape and if you have map awareness you can move to the right spot if it's on your side or if you're mid lane to help your jungler as Shaco will already have wasted his Q to get the enemy jungler.

It's so simple yet because Shaco is different than most junglers lower elo players just dub him toxic. I can tell you from multiple games on him that you don't want to push your lane within the first 6 minutes vs a Shaco... Ever. Force him to play desperately, most Shaco players will not look for the countergank (top players will but that's more of high elo decision making), they just see the gank. As a Shaco player and someone who plays many other junglers it bothers me that many dub him toxic, you know what's bullshit? Flash + W on Pantheon, you know what's even more bullshit? Level 6 gank bot lane as Pantheon, it's literally a free gank and it's why Pantheon is my backup jungler.

It's not actually bullshit but my point is nobody complains about Pantheon yet Shaco gets heat because of his Q which only gives 4 seconds of stealth and the range is only as far as flash. Whenever I'm playing support and I see a Pantheon on the other team I just play it safe come around level 6 for him (usually around second blue or red buff spawn) and tell my adc not to push the lane, same goes for enemy TF. It's the little things like that such as learning to adjust that makes you a better player. Stop dubbing a champion toxic because you don't want to think about how to counter the champion's playstyle.

[Karadros]

Well, I read a bit, but you've used the word toxic so much it no longer sounds like a real word.

[Bizarro55]

[Deleted]

inb4 infracted

[nomorepriest]

^^ this.....

[Sam the Wiser]

Mods are about to have a field day on you three.

[Duronos]

Mods are about to have a field day on you three.

They're honestly just proving my point, they don't read therefore it just revolves around them not wanting to learn in the first place.

And yes mods are going to have a field day.

[Hateful]

They're honestly just proving my point, they don't read therefore it just revolves around them not wanting to learn in the first place.

And yes mods are going to have a field day.

Yeah, could be that.

Or maybe they just can't be bothered reading your gigantic rant post that you've already illustrated the point of a dozen times in other threads. Not sure though.

[Duronos]

Yeah, could be that.

Or maybe they just can't be bothered reading your gigantic rant post that you've already illustrated the point of a dozen times in other threads. Not sure though.

Or maybe I'm sick of people calling a champion I play a lot of toxic. Play normals and that's all I hear, play a ranked and do well in the ranked game I get a "wp Shaco". People just call him toxic because they don't want to learn and it bothers me a lot, most of the champion designers aren't even past Gold yet they make huge decisions on champion design. Like how in the hell did a champion like Azir pass with nobody thinking, "this might be super broken after a few months once people start to learn him". You know what they'll do to Azir, nerf the ever living fuck out of him, it's a vicious cycle.

Why did I talk about the designers? Morello, a guy who doesn't even play that much thinks Shaco is toxic just like any low elo player that gets smacked by one a couple times. You know why? They don't play Shaco to the fullest extent, they don't understand him. Yeah Morello designed him but do you think he fully understood how to counter his playstyle? No because if that were the case Morello would be a high elo player since he pretty much designed or was part of it for most champions.

- - - Updated - - -

He wants to nerf Lee Sin even more but Lee is the one jungler that if you touch to much you get the entire community on you. Pantheon? If he were a bit more popular then he'd have the nerfbat on him. I can decimate normals with Pantheon just as much as Shaco because players don't adjust to different champions. If you aren't willing to adjust then you're going to have a bad time, you get punched in the face you're also going to have a bad time. Slept with a hooked without thinking about it and she has an STD? You're going to have a bad time.

- - - Updated - - -

Also don't care if they gut him, there's other champs to play and abuse but I'll still be a little bit sad that casualized him. I get wait for his E to be a skill shot that can't go through minions, passive completely gone but he now has an active slow that lasts longer but does the same slow % but they regain their speed back slowly for the duration of it. Then his Q will have a % of current health as to ideally assassinate and take the critical hit component completely out and give it a .15 AD ratio, also no more stealth, not like you should have to buy a pink ward amirite? Just a jump that costs 90 fucking mana. Box stacking? Please, only one box allowed at any given time. His R? Oh who the fuck knows what's happening to that, I can't even predict that.

[Edge-]

Yeah, let's not post memes and the like please.

[Dundebuns]

I had a chat about this with a friend the other day and we concluded that he isn't toxic, and that the reason why he excels at lower elos and not at higher elos is down to one thing; Low elo players tend to not drop pinks at important places, or at all, and they wont keep one in their bags just in case.

I've recently taken to placing a pink in games now and trying to keep it replaced. But amazingly they don't tend to get destroyed as people will walk right past them and ignore them.

[Duronos]

I had a chat about this with a friend the other day and we concluded that he isn't toxic, and that the reason why he excels at lower elos and not at higher elos is down to one thing; Low elo players tend to not drop pinks at important places, or at all, and they wont keep one in their bags just in case.

I've recently taken to placing a pink in games now and trying to keep it replaced. But amazingly they don't tend to get destroyed as people will walk right past them and ignore them.

People do not realize how easily that 100g becomes 500g kill since nobody expects their stealth advantage to get turned against them.

[Dundebuns]

People do not realize how easily that 100g becomes 500g kill since nobody expects their stealth advantage to get turned against them.

Indeed! I need to start playing Akali, like, everywhere

[Axethor]

I stayed out of this last time, but now there is a whole thread so why not. Ignoring the first half since it's mostly just complaining about reworks. (Hint, your reason for why no one played Sion in high ELOs is exactly why he got reworked)

Shaco isn't toxic, it's you not adjusting to how he plays. I never go boots of mobility in ranked because it's just too risky since it's pretty much ganking and no farming. In normals I spam that shit and get away with it so hard because players don't adjust and then they say "tryhard Shaco" to which I often want to respond but I don't because it's apparent they don't want to learn. You guys want know how to beat a Shaco? DON'T PUSH YOUR LANE. His jungle clear is meh so forcing him to jungle or to invade your jungle is what you want to do. Forcing a Shaco to invade is actually a great thing as often not you just have a pink in your inventory just in case he tries to escape and if you have map awareness you can move to the right spot if it's on your side or if you're mid lane to help your jungler as Shaco will already have wasted his Q to get the enemy jungler.

"Don't push your lane" applies to any jungler. Obviously if you don't push your less likely to be ganked. However, Shaco can effectively lane gank, especially at lower ELOs where the side bushes are not often warded and easy to clear when they are.

Pink wards are normally the answer to champs with stealth, but more often than not a reactive pink ward will go to waste against a Shaco. Shaco can jump farther than a pink wards vision radius, and since it's a little blink away he can go in any direction. Deception is key to Shaco's kit, and if you guess wrong your out a pink ward and the gold you spent to buy it.

It's so simple yet because Shaco is different than most junglers lower elo players just dub him toxic. I can tell you from multiple games on him that you don't want to push your lane within the first 6 minutes vs a Shaco... Ever. Force him to play desperately, most Shaco players will not look for the countergank (top players will but that's more of high elo decision making), they just see the gank. As a Shaco player and someone who plays many other junglers it bothers me that many dub him toxic, you know what's bullshit? Flash + W on Pantheon, you know what's even more bullshit? Level 6 gank bot lane as Pantheon, it's literally a free gank and it's why Pantheon is my backup jungler.

Flash W on Pantheon is no different from any other Flash + Hard CC. I don't see the problem there. And his ult takes days to land. If your not pushed in lane (oh look, it's not just Shaco) then it becomes harder for Pantheon to gank, with or without ult.

It's not actually bullshit but my point is nobody complains about Pantheon yet Shaco gets heat because of his Q which only gives 4 seconds of stealth and the range is only as far as flash. Whenever I'm playing support and I see a Pantheon on the other team I just play it safe come around level 6 for him (usually around second blue or red buff spawn) and tell my adc not to push the lane, same goes for enemy TF. It's the little things like that such as learning to adjust that makes you a better player. Stop dubbing a champion toxic because you don't want to think about how to counter the champion's playstyle.

There are ways to deal with junglers and mid laners before they gank. It applies to almost all of them, not just Shaco.

The reason people consider Shaco toxic isn't his stealth, it isn't his ganks, it isn't even his ability to splitpush or assassinate. It's in how his kit works so great as a whole, that in almost any 1v1 or 1v2 situation, the Shaco player has the advantage. You can't chase him, because he most likely set up boxes along his escape route and he's stealthed away anyway. You can't run away, because backstab will allow him to deal even more damage while your slowed by E. His ult is "which of these is the lesser of two evils?" since leaving it alive deals damage to you, and killing it also deals damage to you while letting Shaco get free damage.

Honestly, his Q is probably the only part of his kit that isn't a problem and heavily pushes the trickster thematic. I expect it to come through his eventual rework intact. His ult, boxes, and the passive slow on E will most likely see changes or be removed.

[Charge me Doctor]

Reminds me of rogue talking to warlock in world of roguecraft videos. Like "rogues have it pretty rough". Seriously, if you can't fathom that Shaco kit is objectively broken and lacks of counterplay, there is nothing to say to you.

I agree with Axethor that Shaco is probably will keep his Q because its what defines his character the most, but majority of his kit is going to be gone or significantly changed

[Xanjori]

You know the other issue with Shaco? I just don't want it on my team. Unless it gets super fed early it's going to be useless. Worst thing ever is watching Shaco die early and enemy get dragon, because at that point the fucking games over. Nearly any other jungler you can farm into late game (cept maybe Lee, but he at least gives engage and catch) but Shaco is just so linear.

On top of that what makes him toxic is that he is just so dumb to play against. He invades and your team collapse? Nvm he gone. He invades and your team don't collapse? Grats on losing half your jungler and probably the duel. Sure it's not like he is OP, but that's not what toxic means.

Also if you don't realise this game is balanced for lower ELO then you're in for a rough time. Diamond players have literally no effect on balancing, only lower tiers and competitive play.

[Deleted]

Shaco, Britney Spears and this thread.

[Deleted]

Mods are about to have a field day on you three.

Like they're not having it already, that's all they do anyway :^)

[Duilliath]

Let me first explain what is meant by counterplay. Or rather, the way I interpret Riot as meaning it. Obviously, I'm not a Rioter, so my interpretation might be slightly off the way they meant it, but for conversational purposes, it'll be close enough.

1) A player takes an action
2) The opposing player can take a counter action in the moment itself. The right answer needs to be apparent (clarity! - another buzzword Riot uses)

e.g. Blitz grabs me. Answer: I fucked up and should dodge it.

This clarity thing is actually hugely important. This does not just apply to Diamond 1 and above, but the level 5 that just joined the game should be understanding what they did wrong as well and what the right course of action would be.

Counterplay is not within champ select. It is not banning the champion, it's not picking Lee Sin (or any other broken champion) into Shaco. This is very important to note.

It is also not something that applies to every champion (e.g. "just cc them!") or is something you should be doing in general (e.g. "ward up!" "don't push the lane out!"). It is specific to the interaction between your champion and the opposing champion.

Furthermore, as I said it's between champions. Invading as a team does have its counterplay, but is not relevant to the discussion we're having. As such, a statement like "go invade Shaco and trigger his boxnest so he's screwed out of red buff" is not a valid argument in this case. Sure, it's a strategy to keep Shaco down, but
a) is out of the reach of low level/unorganised teams
b) is risky in and off itself
c) not an action an individual player can take (unless he wants to have his team complain about feeding shaco first blood before minions spawned...)

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With the above in mind, let's examine what Shaco does:

Passive: Backstab.
Ie. my 'correct' response of running away from a bad situation (back to my tower) is now a wrong choice, because I am giving Shaco free damage. At the same time, if the Shaco picked his fight correctly (which, thanks to his Q he pretty much always can), staying to fight is also the wrong choice.

Q: Deceive.
To me, this ability is fine. It's annoying, sure, but fine. Ezreal blink acts in much the same way, Shaco just gets a small invisibility. I don't particularly see the need for additional damage on this ability, but that's balancing and not about being toxic.

It does, however, mean that Shaco is very frustrating to chase and try to catch. On its own, the ability isn't a problem, but combined with the other options Shaco has, it does create issues.

W: JitB

This, combined with Q, makes previously smart choices (I can catch the low health Shaco) suddenly an entirely different thing altogether. Stealth + Blink + Fear means that trying to catch a good Shaco is nigh impossible.

So, I am going to try and stop Shaco, but I can't. This means my choices are between wasting my time (a bad decision) or letting Shaco get free objectives (again, a bad decision).

Additionally, if I do try to run away from a bad situation with the Shaco (see: passive), there's a good chance I will get feared and killed regardless. This is further complicating the basic choices I have and makes it even more of a lose-lose situation.

E: Two-Shiv Poison:
If I try to fight Shaco in place, I get slowed and can't get away if needed.
If I run away from Shaco, he will slow me from range and then I can't get away.

Again, two decisions, both with a bad outcome

R: Hallucinate
Shaco sends a clone that damages me and has On-Hit effects (Hydra / BoRK are common items on Shaco). If I fight and kill the clone, it explodes and deals damage to me. If I don't fight and ignore the clone, it deals damage to me for the duration of Shaco's ult.

Combined:
The only meaningful choice a good Shaco offers his opponent is picking the least worst option out of several bad situations. There is no right choice, only a slightly less-bad choice.

Clarity-wise, it is never clear to the opposing player what they should be doing in the moment, nor is it later on. New players will not understand Shaco, exactly because he is meant to deceive (not a pun).

--

As it stands, Shaco has a truly unique kit and is a very specific flavour. He is a very well designed champion thematically. However, the choices he offers his opponent are directly contrary to what Riot wants to achieve with their game. Hence, why he has a toxic kit.

They could completely null the numbers on his abilities and he would still be equally frustrating to play against. It's not a matter of balance (imo, he's underpowered and purposefully so), but of the kind of kit he has and how it affects your decisionmaking in both the Shaco's team and on the enemy's team. He completely warps the game to revolve around him.

//edit: Sidenote, thinking that the guys who actually *made* the game and decide on its direction do not understand it and don't understand your champion is remarkably... I struggle to put this politely... narrow-minded. Such, frankly, ignorant claims do nothing to help bolster your argument. Quite the opposite, it serves to demonstrate that you struggle to understand what is meant by this whole concept and as a result weakens your overall argument.

//edit2: Actually, I'm starting to consider using your post to teach my students about logical fallacies, as it is riddled with them. From your opening line to the closing line.

[Duronos]

I've talked it over with many people that play at high elo, they do not think his kit is toxic. In regards to his boxes, they only last around 60 seconds and there is no feasible way to really have time to have one setup somewhere in your jungle when you have to go gank. The only time I use a box when playing jungle are monster camps and when I'm ganking and have the space to jump behind the enemy. Once a Shaco is in the middle of it, he's in and it better work or Shaco gets screwed over more than most champions due to needing assists and kills partially because his clear speed is meh and his mid game is also meh.

I think you're also forgetting that while you may believe his kit might be a bit toxic that he has next to defensive stats which makes him quite the squishy champion. You can say his kit is toxic but in reality his kit doesn't even effectively work unless he gets those kills and assists off of ganks, he's effectively out of the game unless another lane carries hard like bot which means he can get dragon then.

Look as someone who has played him a lot... And I mean a lot, I have seen it all. I get why you might think it is toxic, great we'll probably never see eye to eye unless you decide to play as much as I do. With that said people like to argue with others about facts nobody else can generally help the person with, I mean seriously how many people understand Shaco to the fullest extent? Probably only me on this forum. How many hate Shaco because there is no "right way" to fight him? Majority of you. How many people play Shaco and have over 500+ games (currently at 765 in ranked)? Just me here.

In many ways I love the champion but I have the experience and data to understand that there is always a right decision vs a Shaco. You tried to point out that he can Q and have his box set up at a moments notice, not necessarily. If enemy team gets smart they'll place a pink down and that will completely negate Shaco and most people will generally catch me out there. You have 1 box when you're running away and unless you've already gained some distance it's not going to be setup to pop fear in time. When Shaco has to run and it's because he was caught it means Shaco loses, want to know how much box and deceive cost early on? 145 mana, for Shaco that's a loss and means he has to go back to base often not. There is a right decision, scare him away. If Shaco gets behind then it's awful to play him and it's quite easy to make sure he does. Also his Q and box have horrendously long CD's.