MW- Renewing Mists in Crane Stance?

[Deleted]

My first post!

Was wondering what you think about eminence healing in Crane Stance? personally I think it feels too clunky to switch between both stances and do decent healing while in Crane stance. I understand that Crane stance is intended for specific times when raid damage is low and you want to do some dps, but I think it would feel so much better if you were able to cast renewing mists while in it. It would provide us with that small amount of raid healing while we're doing dps without screwing us over when we switch back into Serpent stance to spread renewing mists back onto the raid.

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

I think BLizzard have to rethink crane stance all together. Sadly.

I liked the idea first time i heard about it, i dont like how it turned out. AT ALL

Best Regards

[Volibear]

without screwing us over when we switch back into Serpent stance

This is basically just Pool of Mists.

[Deleted]

It still takes time for renewing mists to spread when you switch back to Serpent stance to cast it. Also, you will have the added benefit of it doing a small mount of healing when in Crane stance while eliminating the annoyance of waiting for it to spread in Serpent, just feels like an entirely better outcome to me that would make a lot of MW's happy!
Plus it gives us somewhat more control over who we heal in Crane stance without relying on eminence healing so much. Yes, it's a minimal amount of healing but it's better than nothing without being overpowered.

[MrCool]

Honestly, ReM should be castable in Crane stance.
All this stance crap was done to prevent using Chi from offensive moves (Jab/CJL) to fuel healing moves.

Pool of mists is a bandaid fix for PVE.

They could have kept a single stance and introduce a new kind of Chi that can't be used on healing moves.
But they took the lazy way out.

[Volibear]

Honestly, ReM should be castable in Crane stance.

If you want to cast ReM that badly, switch stance, cast ReM, switch back.

They're separated so that MW don't have issues like they did in 5.4 (CJL for chi > Uplift was better than Soom for chi > Uplift)

Edit: Probably a bad example because they removed chi gen from both of those spells.

[Deleted]

If you want to cast ReM that badly, switch stance, cast ReM, switch back.

They're separated so that MW don't have issues like they did in 5.4 (CJL for chi > Uplift was better than Soom for chi > Uplift)

Edit: Probably a bad example because they removed chi gen from both of those spells.

That wouldn't really be possible with it taking a gcd to switch to Serpent stance and then another back to Crane, especially if you want to keep renewing rolling. The issue is using Crane stance feels too clunky, doing minimal healing without having much control over who you heal as you have no direct healing except for surging mists really. Having renewing mists in Crane stance just provides that extra level of usefulness in feeling like you are contributing to the minimal raid/player damage while doing eminence healing and makes it less annoying when you switch back to Serpent stance to cast renewing mists in preparation for more intense raid damage, as it's already rolling.

[Volibear]

That wouldn't really be possible with it taking a gcd to switch to Serpent stance and then another back to Crane, especially if you want to keep renewing rolling. The issue is using Crane stance feels too clunky, doing minimal healing without having much control over who you heal as you have no direct healing except for surging mists really. Having renewing mists in Crane stance just provides that extra level of usefulness in feeling like you are contributing to the minimal raid/player damage while doing eminence healing and makes it less annoying when you switch back to Serpent stance to cast renewing mists in preparation for more intense raid damage, as it's already rolling.

The thing is though, if you want more ReMs rolling before damage rolls out, you switch to Serpent earlier. With enough MS, you'll blanket the group.
Crane isn't for throughput, it's for a little bit of damage, a little bit of healing, and a lot of mana tea.

[Lumiair]

I fail to see the problem here. Like Voli said:that's the point of Pool of Mists. Ultimately it just means you have to think a few steps ahead and know the damage patterns of the fights so that you can have ReM ready to go when the damage happens. Same thing we did prior with TfT except this is even easier.

[Volibear]

I fail to see the problem here. Like Voli said:that's the point of Pool of Mists. Ultimately it just means you have to think a few steps ahead and know the damage patterns of the fights so that you can have ReM ready to go when the damage happens. Same thing we did prior with TfT except this is even easier.

This.
By design, Crane stance is throwing away your healing for dps. Giving ReM to Crane ruins the entire design.

The new skillcap for MW is knowing when to be in Serpent, when to be in Crane, and timing for the switch.

[MrCool]

@Lunasta, Volibear:

The problem is that MW 6.0 class design is absolutely craptacular and backwards.
Forcing stance mechanics on a class that used to be fast-paced to fix some loopholes was not the right way to do that.

MW players wanting to cast ReM in Crane is just a symptom of this problem.
Pool of Mists is a (mandatory) PvE bandaid fix to this problem.

Crane stance is broken for PVP. Maybe you don't care about PVP, but the class design has to work both in PVP and PVE. Right now, MW only have access to half their toolkit in PVP. Clunky stance mechanics can be played around in PVE by knowing the fight, but it can't work in PVP.

Now, the obvious solution to fix Jab->Jab->Uplift would have been to give 2 kinds of Chi to MW. One that can be used for healing moves and offensive moves (gained with Expel Harm, ReM, SM) and one that can only be used for offensive moves (gained with Jab, CJL), the "Dark side of the Force" Chi if you will.

[Deleted]

If you can't provide a spreadsheet then the devs aren't interested (unless there is like a thread that is caped on the wow forum and not the 2 same people that keeps arguing and the post with the troubles gets tons and tons of plus vote)

but yeah it is clunky the stance swap. it should be like Warrior that we enter the stance on force imo when we use a ability outside the stance.
Like if I use ReM in crane I will be forced to enter Serpent

[MrCool]

If you can't provide a spreadsheet then the devs aren't interested (unless there is like a thread that is caped on the wow forum and not the 2 same people that keeps arguing and the post with the troubles gets tons and tons of plus vote)

This is convenient for devs as class design is not something that can be done with spreadsheets. :P

[Deleted]

well if you can't get tons of people posting on the same forum post and get tons of likes for it then most of the devs aren't going to see the real problem. also spreadsheets helps alot(couse of Celestalon the spreadsheets master :P) especially for class design such as MW mastery.

[Volibear]

Pool of Mists is the best talent at 100, Crane Stance or not. I don't know where you found out otherwise.

Crane Stance is not the only method of doing anything in PvP. It's only a portion of the spec. You can't only use a portion of the spec and complain it's broken.

The solution to fix Jab-Jab-Uplift was fixed a LONG time ago. The splitting of stances was to separate the healing and damage, to give it more of a situational feel, I guess. I don't know devs' motives, but it was pretty easy to weave damage and healing together before stances.

Unfsoda, that was ONE isolated circumstance that showed maths IN a spreadsheet. That was not the only issue brought up in the single post that Celestalon actually replied to, and it was also not the only issue that was addressed in the post.

I do agree though, stance swapping feels horrible. I would like to see stances being off the GCD, so we can do something similar to what you're saying though.

[MrCool]

well if you can't get tons of people posting on the same forum post and get tons of likes for it then most of the devs aren't going to see the real problem. also spreadsheets helps alot(couse of Celestalon the spreadsheets master :P) especially for class design such as MW mastery.

Number tuning is not class design. Classes with bad design can be balanced fine in PVE, but it remains bad design. It boggles my mind when I see people (including monk theorycrafters) commenting on how strong MW are at 100 in PVE raiding and not being bothered in the slightest about how bad MW gameplay is.

Pool of Mists is the best talent at 100, Crane Stance or not. I don't know where you found out otherwise.

It's not in PVP. PVPers don't care about 15% increase on ReM (it sucks anyway) and MW can't make use of RSK in Crane stance since going melee Crane stance is suicide in competitive PVP. The only thing Crane can be used for is ranged CJL > Chi Explosion if your team mates get a kill opportunity but they need extra dps to push the kill.

Crane Stance is not the only method of doing anything in PvP. It's only a portion of the spec. You can't only use a portion of the spec and complain it's broken.

You got this backwards. I never suggested that Crane only should be viable in PvP. Because Crane is so horrible in PVP right now, I'm forced to sit in Serpent 24/7, only using a portion of the spec, hence I can complain it's broken.

The solution to fix Jab-Jab-Uplift was fixed a LONG time ago. The splitting of stances was to separate the healing and damage, to give it more of a situational feel, I guess. I don't know devs' motives, but it was pretty easy to weave damage and healing together before stances.

Jab-Jab-Uplift was bandaid fixed with Muscle Memory, but it was not ideal and I agree with the devs on this. Then CJL became uber strong in 5.4 to cheese Chi, on top of really good damage / Eminence (it was literally outhealing Soothing Mists). Given how hard they nerfed CJL, I guess it's pretty easy to see their true motives.

[Deleted]

I don't know how long you been active on this forum but we hade have a half year of talking about how bad MW are in terms of Mechanic on the alpha/beta discussion thread here on MMoC and so on even theroycrafters talked about it and it was also discussed heavy on the US beta forum wich everyon could atleast look at even if you didn't have beta.
CJL only become strong thanks to heavy stat stacking from gems, Reforging and also LMG helped alot. now we not going 2 have reforging, Gems will be rare and LMG is gone, it was also tuned couse it was kind of OP in 5.4 with how much damage and healing that spell did for it cost + chi generating.
Also instead of haveing channeling cost on it they put it at the start instead. that is why it feels so expensive. you get 4 chi and some healing in 1.5 sec that is really strong (when you are in crane) CJL is a good filler spell now for Serpent stance but yeah it could use some number adjustment.

Here is the thread
alpha beta disscussion about MW

[MrCool]

Yeah I'm sad that I didn't have much time available to follow beta class design. The fact I can't post on US beta forums didn't help either (not that it would have changed devs minds anyway...).

Also instead of haveing channeling cost on it they put it at the start instead. that is why it feels so expensive. you get 4 chi and some healing in 1.5 sec that is really strong (when you are in crane) CJL is a good filler spell now for Serpent stance but yeah it could use some number adjustment.

You must have meant Crane CJL, because if you have time to channel Serpent CJL (which is atrocious numbers wise) you'd be much more effective in Crane in the first place.

I'm not convinced that Crane CJL is ever worth using (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ane-stance-CJL), unless you overgear the content and are siting at 20 tea stacks with full mana. But even in this situation, I doubt CJL is even remotely good/rewarding. Only valid use case is to use it at the very beginning to get your buffs up ASAP.

[Deleted]

Why would you use it at the beginning. Don't you even pre cast ReM at the start ? Crane CJL is like a flash heal in terms of mana cost and what it generates. It gives 4 chi. = RSKx2 or BoK-> RSK = 1 -2 mana tea.

no In Serpent stance it is a good filler dps spell for it cost 0 mana if you can't move to melee wich there will be a few time each raid encounter probably couse you had to do Raid mechanics also don't want to waste 2 gcd to swap stance if healing would be needed . In crane it can use some tweaking but that is all. FOr what it does it is good. 4 chi -> 2 chi spenders and 1 mana tea. that is what 20% of your mana generate in 4.5sec including the gcd for the chi spenders.

THe thing is that you probably talking about a PvP perspective is that correct? and I'm talking about PvE
Also the whole CJL can be talked about in the thread you linked. this is about crane and ReM correct?


Also you could have comment on MMoC and ask people that had accese to the us beta forum to post your opinion. all opinion matters as long as you voice them correctly. you could have voted people up also. The thing with the devs is that they may say they look but it is when loads of people start to show that they will change

[MrCool]

My points are mostly PVP driven indeed (but I still did raiding with my MW pre 6.0, so I still have some PvE perspective).

Let's continue CJL discussion on that thread then.

Also you could have comment on MMoC and ask people that had accese to the us beta forum to post your opinion. all opinion matters as long as you voice them correctly. you could have voted people up also. The thing with the devs is that they may say they look but it is when loads of people start to show that they will change

- I didn't have enough free time to do QA for the devs during early-mid beta.
- I can't upvote US forum posts with a EU account. Upvoting EU forum posts is pointless.
- Mind telling me your toon name on EU forums? I have a hunch it might be an undead warlock.