Mages TOO squishy?

[glowzone]

Fall damage is not a prevalent mechanic in any content. Your example is grasping at straws for relevance.

It was suppose to be.
That's the point, it's a silly problem that really doesn't matter all that much.

How was that not obvious?

[Azaile-]

I still don't know what the problem is, Mages can easily solo content. Just go try it, and if there is a fight you are struggling with from 1 previous expansion try it again at level 100 when its 2 expansions behind us. Lots of content isn't solo-able by all classes when its only 1 xpac old. Just like lots of MoP content may not be solo-able in WoD, some may struggle with Cata Content in MoP. Its normal progression, Cata content will be easily soloed at 100.

[Mormolyce]

Not every class needs a heal. Mages are about not taking damage in the first place.

OOC you have food to regen with, so you start every fight at full HP anyway.

maybe when the whole mage concept is new to the player. after a while mob grinding for quests/dalies on a mage boils down to extra camera/movement adjustments and globals over other classes. not particularly rewarding...

If you don't like Mage style don't play a Mage.

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A lot of people saying for us Mages to rely on CC, that's all fine and dandy if you play Frost. In terms of Arcane and Fire, our CC got gutted to the ground. So much in fact, that I'm happy in saying our CC is literally on par with other classes. Which then of course, now leaves us with a disadvantage to other pure Dps classes. A simple HoT will suffice, like a rogue's recuperate or a hunter's spirit bond.

Recup won't save your ass if you pull too many mobs, not by a long shot, it's no better than ice shield in that respect. Spirit bond ha!

Sure fire and arcane can't kite forever, they do have some tools but really you just have to pull fewer mobs at once. If you want to omnipull and aoe and kite that's frost's niche, always has been.

You know rogues can't pull more than 1-2 mobs in any spec.

[Deleted]

I don't mind that mages have next to none innate healing. The problem is that the other sustain and mitigation mechanics all seem to favor surviving big hits every few minutes (Ice Block, Greater Invisibility) rather than constant pressure. Other mechanics you could use to divert damage away from you got shafted by the talent system. Mirror Image is a DPS CD now and the copies die as soon as they take the slightest damage. Ice Barrier absorbs a pitiful amount and you can't have that and Alter Time. You can't even use your Water Elemental as a makeshift tank because you can't heal it.

I wish we had more options like illusions and absorption shields (kinda like some of the abilities the D3 Wizard has). I really dislike the defensive options we have now and how most of the time we're at the mercy of the nearest healer.

[Deleted]

Here is what this issue sounds like to me, to make my point:

How come shamans can't break fall dmg? Most classes can negate it or atleast reduce it, mages have 3 ways to break fall dmg, 3!
Iceblock, slowfall and blink.

How is that fair? That shamans are the one of only classes that actually have to run around a cliff to avoid dying while the rest just leaps off without a care in the world?

Consumables don't count, everyone can get those!

Don't wanna sound like a troll or a jerk, but that statement was damn near flake level.

the discussion is talking about SMALL quality of life changes so that mage CAN albeit not necessarily faster do the things ALL other classes can currently do, they aren't discussing trivial things like fall damage, fall damage will not effect your ability to do ANYTHING in wow because let's face it how often do we even take fall damage unless you're running around with your jockstrap diving off cliffs? it's unfathomable.

and as a side not Exil25, you "could" technically use your water elemental to tank and heal it by using frostbolt on it, but the aggro would switch right back to in 1-2 casts not a very optimal tank at all xD

[Racthoh]

If you don't like Mage style don't play a Mage.

wow. i assume you're trolling with responses like this but i'll bite.

just because i think soloing on other classes are less of a chore (read: daily quest / cloth farm / raid mounts) doesn't mean i don't enjoy the class i've been maining for years. raiding and pvping are what really matters and mage gameplay in those areas are beyond amazing.

[GrkSiNNer]

I can solo most of FL on my mage. Granted I do not like my mage. The higher your ilvl, the easier it will be.

[Charge me Doctor]

Level up a dk and solo stuff if you are so into it. Playing mage isn't about soloing old content. For gods sake, playing WoW isn't about soloing old content, why are people so obsessed with it? Get a friend and rampage through it for pets/mounts, there is no need for further homogenization of classes.

Also, i solo almost all stuff on my fire mage up to spine in soul of the dragon. Onixia, MC, Maligos, etc is easily doable even at level 90

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Having to use your defensive spells, blink, frost nova, kiting, etc etc is the joy of being a mage, if you want to facetank things while spamming your rotation it isn't the class for you. Personally I'm glad that this style of play is still intact.

There's nothing like the satisfaction of wiping out 20 mobs at once with well-timed CDs and kiting when by all rights you should've been a mage pancake ten times over.

thank you for being a person who doesn't want us to be warlocks 2.0

[Araitik]

Level up a dk and solo stuff if you are so into it. Playing mage isn't about soloing old content. For gods sake, playing WoW isn't about soloing old content, why are people so obsessed with it? Get a friend and rampage through it for pets/mounts, there is no need for further homogenization of classes.

Also, i solo almost all stuff on my fire mage up to spine in soul of the dragon. Onixia, MC, Maligos, etc is easily doable even at level 90

Sure, why would anybody do anything outside of questing and raiding ? Damn, why are there people who think differently than me ?

</sarcasm>

You are not alone on Earth mate. And even if I totally agree on the point that Mages should not become the next Warlocks, a bit of self-healing wouldn't hurt.

A spell like "Consumes 1 charge of Pyroblast!, Fingers of Frost or Arcane Missile to heal you for 5% of max HP"
Or a mana burn to restore health, or anything but nothing.

Sadly, much like it took an entire xpac to remove the awful 90s tier during MoP, I think we'll be screwed for WoD. Please let me be wrong.

[cFortyfive]

and mages can't, that's not a weakness, that's a flaw.

Stop pretending as if cata soloing was entirely impossible even without juggernauts core. Maybe not 25m hc but let's not imply that would be a cakewalk for every other spec.
Personally I would have preferred if they'd have left evocation and its healing component available but well people didn't like evo and whined for years so well.

[willemh]

Level up a dk and solo stuff if you are so into it. Playing mage isn't about soloing old content. For gods sake, playing WoW isn't about soloing old content, why are people so obsessed with it? Get a friend and rampage through it for pets/mounts, there is no need for further homogenization of classes.

Also, i solo almost all stuff on my fire mage up to spine in soul of the dragon. Onixia, MC, Maligos, etc is easily doable even at level 90

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thank you for being a person who doesn't want us to be warlocks 2.0

Its not only about soloing old content. Its about questing aswell. As a mage I feel completely gimped when trying to solo stuff in draenor. The so called 'control' dont exist for fire and arcane, anyone argueing arcane and fire have more control then the average wow class is dilusional. Frost nova is useless when mobs are dotted, the whole ring of frost talent tier is completely useless when mobs are dotted, blink is nearly pointless when you have no slow and mobs move faster then you can run. Seriously, what makes you believe a fire mage has any more control then, say, a warlock?

Now I can understand blizzard not wanting healing options for frost since frost has reasonable CC that doesnt break instantly because they have no dots etc. However, some form of healing is badly needed for fire and arcane in my eyes, because they simply DONT have the control you guys seem to be imagining. Go chain-kill normal lvl 100 mobs in draenor as fire (and arcane) and you'll figure out how gimped you are compared to ANY other class. And yes this IS an issue since questing/dailies/farming mobs play an important role in Draenor.

I am for sure forced to take the gladiator sanctuary while lvling to even be able to kill mobs at a reasonable pace (aka chainpull without resting). This is a fact that I found out the hard way practicing in beta.

[glowzone]

Don't wanna sound like a troll or a jerk, but that statement was damn near flake level.

the discussion is talking about SMALL quality of life changes so that mage CAN albeit not necessarily faster do the things ALL other classes can currently do, they aren't discussing trivial things like fall damage, fall damage will not effect your ability to do ANYTHING in wow because let's face it how often do we even take fall damage unless you're running around with your jockstrap diving off cliffs? it's unfathomable.

and as a side not Exil25, you "could" technically use your water elemental to tank and heal it by using frostbolt on it, but the aggro would switch right back to in 1-2 casts not a very optimal tank at all xD

For the second time, It's a silly issue that doesn't really matter, that was the entire point.
How is that not obvious?

I even started with "Here is what this issue sounds like to me"
Did you expect what followed that to be my sincere concerns about the shaman class?

[Kyriani]

It was suppose to be.
That's the point, it's a silly problem that really doesn't matter all that much.

How was that not obvious?

What's obvious is that it DOES matter to many players. It matters for soloing viability, not just old content but current as well. If content going forward is balanced around sustain abilities being present and one class doesn't possess a sustain, then that one class is at a distinct disadvantage.

[Avikur]

For the second time, It's a silly issue that doesn't really matter, that was the entire point.
How is that not obvious?

I even started with "Here is what this issue sounds like to me"
Did you expect what followed that to be my sincere concerns about the shaman class?

Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean everyone else shares your opinion, if it doesn't matter to you then thats great, I really hope you enjoy your Mage (I genuinely do), however, I feel it does matter, and because of that I'm not enjoying my Mage.

I know it was mentioned earlier that I was exaggerating when I said Mages are the ONLY class that can't solo, but I stand by that statement, I can't think of another single class that doesn't have at least 1 spec capable of easily soloing the last expansions raids on anything harder than 10m normal. I've never said it was impossible, but compared to other classes that can faceroll harder legacy raids it's very unbalanced.

[glowzone]

What's obvious is that it DOES matter to many players. It matters for soloing viability, not just old content but current as well. If content going forward is balanced around sustain abilities being present and one class doesn't possess a sustain, then that one class is at a distinct disadvantage.

You can't just claim it's obvious that so many players care, I'm a mage and couldn't give a toss.
No mage I know in game has ever brought it up, does that mean it's obvious that nobody cares?

No, it's anecdotal evidence, the truth is you most likely have no clue if a lot of people care, neighter do I.
This isn't like the request for transmog, with thousands of requests for the feature.
It's not like the complaining warriors did having to swap to sword and board to use some of their spells, wich was a recurring complaint.

So, no it's not obvious a lot of people care.

That said I wouldn't mind giving mages something like a victory rush to help questing (I did not need to eat at all during questing in beta but fine, doesn't hurt anything)
I would mind giving mages something like recuperate or spirit bond, they don't need it in their current state.

You can come up with ways to make it work, but there's no real reason to, it's not like you can't solo any raids at all, we're not THAT bad at it.
And if it's really important to you, if you really NEED to get better at it , there's leech gear.

I don't see the problem, I just don't.

[sizzlinsauce]

I really wanted to make my Mage my main in WoD but I just don't think I can cope with being so squishy, when I can't solo an old raid that I can on other classes with near enough full health it's very disheartening. Mages shields/absorbs are far too weak, even killing some of the lvl 90 mobs in Blasted Lands, if i pull more than 1 at a time I'm taking large amounts of damage, yet with my hunter or warlock I can pull several at once and survive.
I'd love for frost to have a glyph that teaches you how to summon a slightly different water elemental that could tank like warlocks or hunters have, less damage from the pet but can be a tank for solo stuff.

dont you have a rune circle that heals you for 5% every few seconds? i remember mass pulling on my mage as arcane and using that + shields as being enough.

[rhandric]

What it comes down to is an asinine statement from a dev that (paraphrased) conjure refreshment is a mage's self-sustainability. The complete idiocy of that comment, and implementation based off (or that comment reflecting) shows how out of tune with their community they are.

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dont you have a rune circle that heals you for 5% every few seconds? i remember mass pulling on my mage as arcane and using that + shields as being enough.

No, they removed the heal glyph from evocate (which the rune benefited from)

[Kyriani]

You can't just claim it's obvious that so many players care, I'm a mage and couldn't give a toss.
No mage I know in game has ever brought it up, does that mean it's obvious that nobody cares?

No, it's anecdotal evidence, the truth is you most likely have no clue if a lot of people care, neighter do I.
This isn't like the request for transmog, with thousands of requests for the feature.
It's not like the complaining warriors did having to swap to sword and board to use some of their spells, wich was a recurring complaint.

So, no it's not obvious a lot of people care.

That said I wouldn't mind giving mages something like a victory rush to help questing (I did not need to eat at all during questing in beta but fine, doesn't hurt anything)
I would mind giving mages something like recuperate or spirit bond, they don't need it in their current state.

You can come up with ways to make it work, but there's no real reason to, it's not like you can't solo any raids at all, we're not THAT bad at it.
And if it's really important to you, if you really NEED to get better at it , there's leech gear.

I don't see the problem, I just don't.

You don't have to see it as a problem. But some of us do. And I very well CAN claim that "many" players see it as an issue. I never said HOW MANY, I never said ALL, I never said MOST, I simply used the word many. It's a very nebulous word I agree. And while my opinion of how many constitutes many may be subjective, I base it on the number of responses when the lack of mage sustain first came to light.

I also think you aren't seeing the bigger picture. ALL classes (except mages) have some sort of sustain now. CONTENT IS BEING BALANCED AROUND SUSTAINS EXISTING. Not just soloing old content, not just leveling in current content, but pve and pvp content in general. WoD is designed around healers not being able to keep people topped off and players remaining in damaged states through fights. Sustains take some of the onus off the healers a bit and make keeping people alive easier. Content is being balanced around those sustains existing. Except of course mages who have no sustain and are thus more of a liability than other classes because they have no way to consistently help sustain their own HP the way EVERY OTHER CLASS can. I'll also reiterate: Leech gear is irrelevant. Anyone can use Leech gear. It does not make up for a lack of sustain.

Just because you don't see it as a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Just as me seeing it as a problem doesn't necessarily mean it is.

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dont you have a rune circle that heals you for 5% every few seconds? i remember mass pulling on my mage as arcane and using that + shields as being enough.

You should really fire up your mage again and try to find the healing you think is still there. You'll find that it is not.

[glowzone]

Fair enough, perhaps you used the word many wrong, or I just put too much value in it.

Just because you don't see it as a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Just as me seeing it as a problem doesn't necessarily mean it is.

Exactly, so is there a problem?

Are mages doing bad in pvp?
Is their lack of sustain keeping mages out of raiding?

Or is there some other part of the bigger picture that I'm missing?

[Kyriani]

Fair enough, perhaps you used the word many wrong, or I just put to much value in it.



Exactly, so is there a problem?

Are mages doing bad in pvp?
Is their lack of sustain keeping mages out of raiding?

What part of the bigger picture am I missing?

/sigh

I'll try to explain it again as simply as possible. Content is balanced around sustains existing. Out of all the classes one does not possess a sustain. This is a problem IMO.

You'll ask why and I'll answer because it puts that one class at a distinct disadvantage in many different types of content and also makes that class more of a liability than any other class in various modes of content.