[Holy] Holy Sh*t!: Warlords Edition

[Tiberria]

Pretty sure that Rogues are like 4 times higher than any other melee on Blackhand(after all they were once infinitely higher than any other melee). Rogue nerfs inc???????

Also Holy and Disc Priests separately? Seriously?

Also, you do realize that if Disc Priests for example weren't so "needed", they wouldn't be used at all yeah? None goes in a hard fight you barely heal through and says: yeah lets get rid of the shaman/druid and lets get a disc priest in instead.

I don't even know why you post in any healer thread about opinions when you fotm rerolled druid?

Rogues don't outrepresent every other melee spec in 9 out of 10 BRF fights like Holy Paladins outrepresent every other healer in 9 of 10 fights. Rogues on Blackhand is a case of having class mechanics that trivialize parts of the fight; Paladins dominating other healers on every single fight is an example of a completely broken spec that needs to be gutted.

[Deleted]

Rogues don't outrepresent every other melee spec in 9 out of 10 BRF fights like Holy Paladins outrepresent every other healer in 9 of 10 fights.

Yeah they do.

Holy Paladins on Blackhand are greatly overrated and a consequence of copy pasta.

[Tiberria]

My recommendation for at least making it so 2xHPally in every 4 healer fight isn't the optimal raid composition is to change Beacons so they are limited to only 1 Beacon allowed per target across all Holy Pallies in the raid instead of being able to put multiple Beacons on the same tank if you have multiple HPallies. While 1 would still be mandatory, this would at least moderate things similar to Disc Priests, where there isn't much value in brining in multiple HPallies. It might also make for better L100 talent balance in situations where you have to have more than 1 HPally in the raid.

[Deleted]

My recommendation for at least making it so 2xHPally in every 4 healer fight isn't the optimal raid composition is to change Beacons so they are limited to only 1 Beacon allowed per target across all Holy Pallies in the raid instead of being able to put multiple Beacons on the same tank if you have multiple HPallies. While 1 would still be mandatory, this would at least moderate things similar to Disc Priests, where there isn't much value in brining in multiple HPallies. It might also make for better L100 talent balance in situations where you have to have more than 1 HPally in the raid.

Yeah that's not going to happen because it would be retarded on multiple levels, but please tweet to Celestalon. He loves a good laugh.

[Floopa]

My recommendation for at least making it so 2xHPally in every 4 healer fight isn't the optimal raid composition is to change Beacons so they are limited to only 1 Beacon allowed per target across all Holy Pallies in the raid instead of being able to put multiple Beacons on the same tank if you have multiple HPallies. While 1 would still be mandatory, this would at least moderate things similar to Disc Priests, where there isn't much value in brining in multiple HPallies. It might also make for better L100 talent balance in situations where you have to have more than 1 HPally in the raid.

that literally seems so cancerous honestly. i don't agree there.

like i said, if necessary change holy insight so that it increases healing by 5% (down from 25%) or as i previously said double the mana costs of all spells apart from HR. i just don't see a situation or reason where blizzard could legitimately think holy paladins needed a buff lol.

edit: previous question is unfair as it's less about a spec's worth and more about how guild's portray players/spec worth. simply straight up aladya do you think paladins on live are bad compared to other healers? where would you rate them compared to other healers.

[Tiberria]

Yeah they do.

Holy Paladins on Blackhand are greatly overrated and a consequence of copy pasta.

Except they don't. Rogues have 3 specs, so of course they would outrepresent something like a Ret Pally. It's only comparable to the Holy Paladin fiasco if Rogues outrepresent Ret Pallies, Enhance Shaman, Feral Druids, etc by a 3:1 or greater margin.

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that literally seems so cancerous honestly. i don't agree there.

like i said, if necessary change holy insight so that it increases healing by 5% (down from 25%) or as i previously said double the mana costs of all spells apart from HR. i just don't see a situation or reason where blizzard could legitimately think holy paladins needed a buff lol.

That solution is really not much different from the implementation of Weakened Soul that has been in the game since forever to prevent stacking ridiculous amounts of Priests. Something like that is clearly needed to keep throughput healers relevant and competitive with absorb healers.

[Ajwon]

Except they don't. Rogues have 3 specs, so of course they would outrepresent something like a Ret Pally. It's only comparable to the Holy Paladin fiasco if Rogues outrepresent Ret Pallies, Enhance Shaman, Feral Druids, etc by a 3:1 or greater margin.

Now you are just trolling. Please go away.

Please refrain from posting purely to call another user a troll.

[Deleted]

HL's mana cost is fine. The issue is the mana cost of HR is completely bonkers compared to its healing, I pointed this out ages ago.

You cant just buff HR and keep HL/beacon the same. Right now we are very competitive on the healing meter and for the most part 10k hps from a holy paladin is better than 10k hps from a druid due to the fact that a much larger % of our healing is on the tanks, that is true even when casting HR despite the fact that HR does less tank healing.

So while I dont agree with the regular "nerf paladins and disc" posters, Floopa and Tiberria, we are not overpowered but if you buff HR while not touching HL/beacon we would become very overpowered.

[Tiberria]

You cant just buff HR and keep HL/beacon the same. Right now we are very competitive on the healing meter and for the most part 10k hps from a holy paladin is better than 10k hps from a druid due to the fact that a much larger % of our healing is on the tanks, that is true even when casting HR despite the fact that HR does less tank healing.

So while I dont agree with the regular "nerf paladins and disc" posters, Floopa and Tiberria, we are not overpowered but if you buff HR while not touching HL/beacon we would become very overpowered.

Actually, you are already overpowered. You're the most represented healer on 9 of 10 fights, and outrepresenting other healers by factors of up to 5:1 on some of the most difficult fights. On top of that, Paladins are doing more aggregate effective throughput than every throughput healer despite having a raid cooldown that is over and above those throughput numbers. If you were to compare Paladin throughput with Druid/Shaman/Monk throughput with Tranq/Revival/HTT healing removed - a more reasonable comparison, Paladins would be 20-25% ahead (of everything but Disc Priests).

[Deleted]

Actually, you are already overpowered. You're the most represented healer on 9 of 10 fights, and outrepresenting other healers by factors of up to 5:1 on some of the most difficult fights. On top of that, Paladins are doing more aggregate effective throughput than every throughput healer despite having a raid cooldown that is over and above those throughput numbers. If you were to compare Paladin throughput with Druid/Shaman/Monk throughput with Tranq/Revival/HTT healing removed - a more reasonable comparison, Paladins would be 20-25% ahead (of everything but Disc Priests).

You are comparing apples to oranges, if you want to remove healing done from tranq etc you also have to remove all extra holy paladin healing done during AW. Shamans have SLT, paladins have AM and disc priest have barrier because Blizzard thought we needed more utility than the other classes.

The over representation has more to do with the classes each guild has access to and copy paste as Aladya already mentioned. Paragon did not have a resto shaman so they did not use a resto shaman week 1 of their Blackhand progress but at that point in time a resto shaman was basically mandatory for that boss, same is true for my own guild and a lot of other guilds too im sure.

There are also tons of raid leaders/healing officers out there who look at the number 1 guild and just copies them. If we take Blackhand as an example using 2 paladins is a really poor choice yet you will find more 2 paladin Blackhand kills than any other class. Double shaman is ideal on this fight yet I would be suprised if you can find even 1 guild who did that.

[Diggy]

Another issue with holy paladins is that we bring Hand of Protection, which is way too strong on the fights where it is useful. Take Blackhand p3 as an example, its as strong as bubble/iceblock/deterrance etc and it can be used on other players and we have 2 of them if we take clemency, rediculous. I think it should be removed from holy paladins and replaced with Hand of Salvation.

BoP issue is the one that could and should be solved on an encounter side. BRF had a lot of mechanics cheesable by a bop leading it to be so overpowered. They can easily create more bosses that would emphasize BoP way less and not gut another iconic ability for the sake of "balance" and "new healing model"

It is more than likely that it's going to happen next tier and it seems like the buff to devo aura was made to somewhat offset it. 20% raidwide against physical damage is nothing to skip over, but it is not going to beat how ridiculous BoPs were this tier.

I do agree that in retrospect double beacon is something that shouldn't have been in the game and creates more problems than it solves. Well.. you know.. someone could have listened to feedback over the beta, but nooooooo...

[Floopa]

You are comparing apples to oranges, if you want to remove healing done from tranq etc you also have to remove all extra holy paladin healing done during AW. Shamans have SLT, paladins have AM and disc priest have barrier because Blizzard thought we needed more utility than the other classes.

The over representation has more to do with the classes each guild has access to and copy paste as Aladya already mentioned. Paragon did not have a resto shaman so they did not use a resto shaman week 1 of their Blackhand progress but at that point in time a resto shaman was basically mandatory for that boss, same is true for my own guild and a lot of other guilds too im sure.

There are also tons of raid leaders/healing officers out there who look at the number 1 guild and just copies them. If we take Blackhand as an example using 2 paladins is a really poor choice yet you will find more 2 paladin Blackhand kills than any other class. Double shaman is ideal on this fight yet I would be suprised if you can find even 1 guild who did that.

but AW isnt your raid CD, DA is! that's how paladins are justifying the DA buff Kappa

#paladinlogic

[Deleted]

but AW isnt your raid CD, DA is! that's how paladins are justifying the DA buff Kappa

#paladinlogic

We have 2 raid cds just like shamans have 4 of them, AW is hps throughput just like ascendance and HTT and AM is damage reduction just like SLT. I dont know what the arguement for only some classes having the dmg reduction cds is since 6.0.

[Deleted]

change Beacons so they are limited to only 1 Beacon allowed per target across all Holy Pallies in the raid.

That sounds terrible. Please stop it. Paladins and disc being unique in what they bring to the raid and gameplay is a great thing. Not everyone wants to play rdruid/monk/holy priest which all feel like they are the same. Also it's not necessary at all to have 2 holy paladins (on some bosses it's arguably worse than an extra throughput healer, not everything Method does has to be the best).

In fact healer balance was never as good as it is now (I take the more skilled throughput healer everyday and don't care about the class). That said I still agree that hpala and disc could take a slight(!) nerf.

The biggest problem with healing right now is the fact that 3min CDs are incredibly overpowered to the point that it would probably be a good decision to flat out remove them.

[Floopa]

In fact healer balance was never as good as it is now (I take the more skilled throughput healer everyday and don't care about the class). That said I still agree that hpala and disc could take a slight(!) nerf.

doubling your spell costs is, in fact, just a slight nerf. maybe that can explain how absurd a holy paladin is.

i'm going to use aladya's armoury as reference as im sure you'll all agree he knows how to play his spec - so there can be no denying that he's doing stuff wrong. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ladya/advanced

he runs 991 spirit.

doubling your spell costs would presumably mean he needs 1982 mana to be "at the same level".

he doesn't use a spirit cloak, so he could get 120~ spirit from barrage dodger cloak, then he needs to do is substitute 1 of his trinkets for a passive spirit trinket and possibly use mark of shadowmoon instead of mark of the thunderlord. that's all. doubling your mana costs effectively has the same impact as a 400 spellpower nerf.

further, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...3&type=healing this is my most recent blast furnace kill. like aladya, our paladin runs sub 1k spirit and has roughly the same gear as me. i, on the other hand, run double spirit trinkets giving me 2621 spirit. in the fight i win healing by just over 1 million. if we subtract revival i am 2nd.

my uptime on RJW across the entire fight was 38.54%. this is just p3 (heart of the mountain): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...08&end=1184661 again i top healing and my uptime on RJW in just phase 3 is 58.07% and my healing is not much different - if you subtract my revival i basically heal the same as a paladin. it's important to note that i ended the fight with 4 mana tea stacks (with my spirit = 2 RJWs, so i could get an extra 400k healing out assuming 0 overhealing). this is mana expenditure for all of p3: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...4661&spell=100 notice how the paladin barely loses mana across the entire phase (again, on sub 1000 spirit) but notice how every other healer's mana goes down. further, it's important to note our druid and shaman both run at least 1 spirit trinket and have spirit on all slots.

please tell me how paladins are balanced lol.

[bouchbagfett]

Wait so your proof that Paladins are over powered is that you out heal them when they run sub 1000 spirit and you have to sacrifice traditional throughput stats for 2600 spirit? If anything you are proving the opposite in that with more throughput stats a pally is still behind. Why would you not count Revival? Is that not something that is useful and contributes to raid healing?!

You are also helping prove paladins mana dumps or mana to throughput conversions are poor and thus running more spirit gains you very little. Just because your pally didn't drop in mana doesn't mean if he used more of it he would have done much more healing.

[Deleted]

doubling your spell costs is, in fact, just a slight nerf. maybe that can explain how absurd a holy paladin is.

i'm going to use aladya's armoury as reference as im sure you'll all agree he knows how to play his spec - so there can be no denying that he's doing stuff wrong. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ladya/advanced

he runs 991 spirit.

doubling your spell costs would presumably mean he needs 1982 mana to be "at the same level".

I also run 2x regen trinkets(NOT BY CHOICE BLIZZARD, I HATE YOUR HEALER TRINKETS) that while don't provide spirit upfront do in fact provide ~221 and ~400(or so) effective spirit. I also sometimes get a lot of 4p/DP procs which costs no mana.

I also have an understanding about the paladin class that you don't, so while it amuses me to read your posts sometimes, pls stop.

[Tiberria]

Why would you not count Revival? Is that not something that is useful and contributes to raid healing?!

Because Devo Aura (and PW: Barrier) are also very useful cooldowns that "contribute to raid healing", have the same role as Revival (the spec's primary raid cooldown) and are not counted at all. The only reasonable way to compare throughput/contribution of healers with some raid cooldowns not counting on meters is to exclude the healing from all raid cooldowns. Therefore, Revival absolutely should be excluded if you want to compare Paladin healing with Mistweaver healing. It isn't reasonable for Paladins to do the same healing as Mistweavers plus have their raid cooldown as gravy on top of that, considering that raid CDs such as Revival, Tranq, etc. account for upwards of 20%+ of a throughput healer's output.

[Deleted]

snip

You forgot the baseline mana regen which is equivalent to ~1500 spirit, which means "doubling mana cost" would require Aladya to get 2500 spirit on top of what he already has and that is not possible even in full BiS spirit gear. And while your idiotic suggestion would be "not such a big nerf" for those of us in ilvl 700+ it would completely make the game unplayable for any holy paladin who is still doing progression.

[Gumboy]

So floopa beats the holy paladin by over a million healing, then complains that holy Paladins are op because they have to sacrifice spirit for throughout stats.

And that is the rub: they have to do that to really compete, nerfing that means you might as well remove the spec, they Wont be worth bringing...
How badly do you need to crush the holy Paladins on the fight before it's acceptable to you?