[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Deleted]

would be a boon to us,

Pls not again, I've done enough /sitting

[Deleted]

Oh, it's Sloot. Watched quite a bit of you back in SoO. Didn't expect you here. You were one of the factors why I decided to try to help some really new tanks getting into tanking itself.

I can't really claim to be one of the biggest posters here nor the most informed but I always like to not just ask 1 source for advice. Which is probably wiser than just taking someone's word as gospel. Which some people tend to do. Sadly.

Lego block candy

Tried to bite into my old LEGOs and got nothing other than a lot of dust and bloody gums. I should sue you for making me do this!

[Lysozyme]

blame blizzard for gutting prot ^^

Too late! SLOOTBAG KILLED PROT!

[Treck]

o/

People find it a lot easier to hate someone they have never talked to, or even interacted with.
And we get shit for not participating in this open forum, when our streams are as open for discussions as well. Neither of us would shut anyone down or completely ban you for actually trying to hold a rational discussion, that said, obviously forums are 1000x easier to keep up with cause not everyone can sit and watch every second of someones stream every day.
But shit talking someone else who isn't even here to defend themselves or their opinion, is the path of least resistance.

I at least read these forums a lot, but seeing the hostility and personal attacks towards myself and others, just never felt compelled it's the forum I'd wanna engage in.

I'm definitely also guilty of the whole "MMO-C Forums are just aids" but that's honestly been completely pushed towards the ones concerning the world first race where I've been a part for 4.5 years, and knowing the real side of what people are wildly speculating about, and seeing how aids the community drives it on completely wild speculation.

[Fiskyh]

As a non-top raider/average Joe, I'll give my opinion on this topic of discussion, since I am a different demographic than both Sloot/Treckie, and people like PTS/Lazel/Veilyn.

I re-subbed for WoD and hadn't played in ages. Before I came here, I got quite a lot of help from watching the interview with Sloot and Treckie on FinalBossTV, where they went over Prot in a pretty thorough fashion. It improved my understanding and gameplay of the class quite significantly, and I ended up doing much better.

However, after this, coming to this particular thread to read opinions and discussions about the spec, talents, etc., provided me with much more constant stream of information. Despite the banter/shitposting, there IS a lot of informative posts here to learn from. This is where, to me, people like Treckie and Slootbag fall short. I like both Treckie and Sloot. They both seem like super chill guys I'd love to have a beer with, and they are undoubtedly good players. This thread is simply more informative and a great place to ask questions, or simply lurk in order to expand your knowledge and apply it to gameplay. This is primarily because it is the main purpose of the thread and people post quite frequently.

Honestly I think the bashing that goes on between the two sides is ultimately dumb and juvenile. Having some genuine banter is always fun, but when it boils down to either side just mindlessly trashing each other, it does more harm than good. I know that some people just do it for fun, but when it is perceived as genuine negativity rather than banter, it drives a wedge between the two. I would much prefer if we could have people like Sloot and Treckie here to discuss the spec in detail, and having actual back and forth arguments for why talent X might be better than Y, or how a certain playstyle might benefit you more than another.

To me, someone who isn't a top dog of the spec, it's a shame that there is this separation. The more the merrier, and if we can have a greater pool of people to discuss things with, there would be more to learn, and more insight into different playstyles and whatnot. The banter is great, and I want it to stay; I simply don't want it to be a tool to make people shy away from this thread, regardless if they are Sloot/Treckie or just another random Prot Paladin.

[towelliee]

Not going to lie I been frightened to death to post here or anywhere for years since being banned back in 2010 ish. I silently lurk here and learn a lot, and I always watch Sloot and others on twitch when I'm not streaming and raiding. Maintankadin was a staple for informative tank play then I found this forum.

Like 2 heads are better than one, same goes for class communities. Merging all the knowledge and spreading it all over is beneficial for the players and class itself. As feedback and suggestions can fly around from all angles and be given to Blizzard to possibly tinker with.

Don't hurt me plz.

[bicycle]

So uhh, with all these great minds and community people and such, can we get a bigger outcry about the state of alpha prot pallies? Sub rogues and blood DKs got Blizzard to at least acknowledge some shortcomings, largely because of the effort from community leaders to show the problems to the public at large, while a frightening number of prot paladins on the internets keep saying they're just happy holy power is gone, with no concern for how there's basically no gameplay at all in its place.

[Deleted]

Liminara is doing his proverbial Kanye Best, and a large part of this community only has access to the EU forums, which it is more or less accepted that Blizzard only provides for show and does not actually read to any serious extent. I would write diatribe upon diatribe if I thought anyone was actually paying attention to it.

The only thing that could realistically be done that would garner enough attention to fix the current issues is to write some sort of manifesto akin to the one Troxism wrote, but there are two issues with this:

1. Someone would actually have to write the damn thing
2. The Paladin community is far larger than the Blood DK or particularly Sub Rogue one, and quite frankly we may very well just have to get used to the thought that as much as we hate the current state of the spec, the majority of the Prot community would actually prefer the "Babby's First Tank 2k10" with zero depth. We tend to have an unfortunate habit of assuming that the opinion held by this forum (which, by God, does trend very much in the hardcore direction) is widely held, but in this case it is very likely that it simply is not, and we may ultimately have to bow to that fact.

[towelliee]

So uhh, with all these great minds and community people and such, can we get a bigger outcry about the state of alpha prot pallies? Sub rogues and blood DKs got Blizzard to at least acknowledge some shortcomings, largely because of the effort from community leaders to show the problems to the public at large, while a frightening number of prot paladins on the internets keep saying they're just happy holy power is gone, with no concern for how there's basically no gameplay at all in its place.

The lack of resources is a bit concerning.

[celinamuna]

Liminara is doing his proverbial Kanye Best, and a large part of this community only has access to the EU forums, which it is more or less accepted that Blizzard only provides for show and does not actually read to any serious extent. I would write diatribe upon diatribe if I thought anyone was actually paying attention to it.

The only thing that could realistically be done that would garner enough attention to fix the current issues is to write some sort of manifesto akin to the one Troxism wrote, but there are two issues with this:

1. Someone would actually have to write the damn thing
2. The Paladin community is far larger than the Blood DK or particularly Sub Rogue one, and quite frankly we may very well just have to get used to the thought that as much as we hate the current state of the spec, the majority of the Prot community would actually prefer the "Babby's First Tank 2k10" with zero depth. We tend to have an unfortunate habit of assuming that the opinion held by this forum (which, by God, does trend very much in the hardcore direction) is widely held, but in this case it is very likely that it simply is not, and we may ultimately have to bow to that fact.

Kanye confirmed.

I mean, i can to write out "the damn thing", but it is likely to remain far smaller than trox's manifesto, in part so that people can actually read through it.

The current bullet point of issues (in my opinion) :
- Self healing and LotP having terrible scaling between 5 man and raids (and as a minor issue - lack of FoL)
- BH with it's multiple hits requiring rain man level precision
- Rotation feeling disconnected from the mitigation
- Currently putting too many eggs into AS basket
- Possibly : Crit is better than haste in basically every single respect (idk/idc about mastery atm) and if they plan on addressing it.

[Alaysian]

I also lurk here, but this is my first ever post in this forum. I come here to see what other's post and try out what they say, and see if it can help me out when progression is on. As far as actually communicating in the forum, I tend to hide in the shadow's. I am by no means a known player as most that post here. I have rank's in Warcraft Log's but you won't find me in the top 10, and I only raid in a 2 night a week guild because of time constraints.

I have been posting in the alpha forums as well, and agree with what the majority of what most are saying here about Prot Pally on Alpha. So if you got alpha access, post on the forums. Step up and give feedback, even if its the same thing that everyone else has already stated, and if blizzard doesn't break on this charge system and give us an actual resource, then lets hope they give us some form of control over the charges other than praying for judgment crits.

[Slootbag]

Too late! SLOOTBAG KILLED PROT!

You'll never catch me alive!

Pls not again, I've done enough /sitting

Good thing they immediately 180'd on the initial passive artifact design eh?

We all know pez is best candy.

I'll fite you m8

Let's all hold hands, sing a song and bridge the gap between the communities, y'know?

Mine are sweaty though.

Given pretty much everything i was going to say has already been covered... Lego block candy is amazing.

Now let's convince celinamuna

Don't hurt me plz.

Back to your cage!

So uhh, with all these great minds and community people and such, can we get a bigger outcry about the state of alpha prot pallies? Sub rogues and blood DKs got Blizzard to at least acknowledge some shortcomings, largely because of the effort from community leaders to show the problems to the public at large, while a frightening number of prot paladins on the internets keep saying they're just happy holy power is gone, with no concern for how there's basically no gameplay at all in its place.

Kanye confirmed.

I mean, i can to write out "the damn thing", but it is likely to remain far smaller than trox's manifesto, in part so that people can actually read through it.

The current bullet point of issues (in my opinion) :
- Self healing and LotP having terrible scaling between 5 man and raids (and as a minor issue - lack of FoL)
- BH with it's multiple hits requiring rain man level precision
- Rotation feeling disconnected from the mitigation
- Currently putting too many eggs into AS basket
- Possibly : Crit is better than haste in basically every single respect (idk/idc about mastery atm) and if they plan on addressing it.

The bigger(est) issue here is Blizzard's known attitude. I and many of us have direct ins with people in Blizzard where direct feedback can be given (which is why you don't see many post on public forums, the point is being made elsewhere directly). While we are all pretty much in the same boat about the main stuff, and of course all have our own ideas here and there for more minor things, the problem is this - Blizzard have a history of being very stubborn with some things, and if there is something they think they are particularly onto, they will fight it out to the death. My concern is this is what we have on hand with Prot design.

You can see it already with very little turn around from any design stand point on Prot for ~3 builds now. No hint of changes, nothing. They are currently trying to balance and process and stick with the current meta design.

I fear it won't be a simple flop over like it was for Sub Rogues, and they claim there seems to be a 50/50 split in the community supporting/hating the design respectively (I've literally talked to 2 of like 123635623 people that said they dig it). Voices just need to be loud but constructive here is imo the best approach and they need to be overwhelmed to realize that the mass part of the community for Prot Paladins just aren't down for this design.

[Deleted]

Mine are sweaty though.

Are your knees also weak? How's Mama Sloots spaghetti?

I fear it won't be a simple flop over like it was for Sub Rogues, and they claim there seems to be a 50/50 split in the community supporting/hating the design respectively (I've literally talked to 2 of like 123635623 people that said they dig it). Voices just need to be loud but constructive here is imo the best approach and they need to be overwhelmed to realize that the mass part of the community for Prot Paladins just aren't down for this design.

I haven't spoken to/seen a single person who currently mains Prot outside of maybe some LFR babbies that enjoys any part of the Legion design. Surely they're just sticking their heads in the sand over this. With Sub, they genuinely had to change it. It was genuinely horrible, whereas Prot Paladin is... passable, I suppose. Yes we all dislike it, but the class has some sense to it and a general way of playing it. Sub was a 2 button wonder with a janky ass CD.

Are you down to openly address the issues with Prot Pala over on the US forums to see how much support it garners, possibly with the aid of some of us over here on MMO-C? Potentially in the form of a decent-length post (not quite Troxism levels of angry word vomit) where the main issues are addressed clearly? The big cheeses such as PTS and Lim would definitely be down to help, knowing how passionate they are about all of this.

[celinamuna]

The bigger(est) issue here is Blizzard's known attitude. I and many of us have direct ins with people in Blizzard where direct feedback can be given (which is why you don't see many post on public forums, the point is being made elsewhere directly). While we are all pretty much in the same boat about the main stuff, and of course all have our own ideas here and there for more minor things, the problem is this - Blizzard have a history of being very stubborn with some things, and if there is something they think they are particularly onto, they will fight it out to the death. My concern is this is what we have on hand with Prot design.

You can see it already with very little turn around from any design stand point on Prot for ~3 builds now. No hint of changes, nothing. They are currently trying to balance and process and stick with the current meta design.

I fear it won't be a simple flop over like it was for Sub Rogues, and they claim there seems to be a 50/50 split in the community supporting/hating the design respectively (I've literally talked to 2 of like 123635623 people that said they dig it). Voices just need to be loud but constructive here is imo the best approach and they need to be overwhelmed to realize that the mass part of the community for Prot Paladins just aren't down for this design.

I mean, we sort of figured it out by now, especially by looking at blood dks.

In reality i wouldn't expect the split to even be 50/50 if anything i'd expect there to be more people who like the new design. The simple fact is, that mmo-c, other high end raiders don't even remotely represent general wow population. Looking at say somewhat more casual players of /r/wow one would notice how many people loved the idea of removing HP and going back to "my favorite wrath gameplay".

Personally i realistically don't expect us to get actually interesting things, or go through drastic changes until next expansion, which is why realistically i would attempt to focus on fixing the little issues, especially since they can be worked around "this is bad even for a casual player" angle.

[Won7on]

Blame Blizzard for gutting Prot ^^
I'm waiting to see this week's patch and if Prot will receive any changes before Youtubing about it, with what I believe to be (based on everything I've read here, heard from others, tested myself, etc) to be a fairly accurate representation of the frustration with the design on Alpha.
However, based on their already defensive stance on their design, this will be a hard nut to crack, especially when they are hiding behind "A lot of people like this design" (which sorry if you do but I don't at all). They won't flop over as easily as they did with Sub Rogue design I'm afraid.

Kanye confirmed.

I mean, i can to write out "the damn thing", but it is likely to remain far smaller than trox's manifesto, in part so that people can actually read through it.

The current bullet point of issues (in my opinion) :
- Self healing and LotP having terrible scaling between 5 man and raids (and as a minor issue - lack of FoL)
- BH with it's multiple hits requiring rain man level precision
- Rotation feeling disconnected from the mitigation
- Currently putting too many eggs into AS basket
- Possibly : Crit is better than haste in basically every single respect (idk/idc about mastery atm) and if they plan on addressing it.

You guys are the heroes Gotham needs right now. It really does piss me off that Blizzard just continues to hide behind "nah, lots of people like it". Yeah, as I said, lots of my friends who used to play Paladin in Wrath are psyched that Holy Power's gone, cause they never bothered to learn how to play with Holy Power. But catering to them just shits on the dedicated Prot Paladin players who've been loyal to the class for the past 6 years. These issues were brought up DAY ONE, when the first preview came out. Practically everyone, including Theck himself, were tweeting about how removing Holy Power would cause problems, but Blizzard is stubborn enough to ignore that for 3 straight months now.

At the very least, if they want to keep the class as it is baseline, there need to be talent options for more skilled players who want to be rewarded for things like, you know, doing a rotation.

Hopefully if you guys start making noise about this, we can eventually raise enough of a ruckus to get Blizzard to make some changes for us.

[Punisher069]

You guys are the heroes Gotham needs right now. It really does piss me off that Blizzard just continues to hide behind "nah, lots of people like it". Yeah, as I said, lots of my friends who used to play Paladin in Wrath are psyched that Holy Power's gone, cause they never bothered to learn how to play with Holy Power. But catering to them just shits on the dedicated Prot Paladin players who've been loyal to the class for the past 6 years. These issues were brought up DAY ONE, when the first preview came out. Practically everyone, including Theck himself, were tweeting about how removing Holy Power would cause problems, but Blizzard is stubborn enough to ignore that for 3 straight months now.

At the very least, if they want to keep the class as it is baseline, there need to be talent options for more skilled players who want to be rewarded for things like, you know, doing a rotation.

Hopefully if you guys start making noise about this, we can eventually raise enough of a ruckus to get Blizzard to make some changes for us.

Blizz had the same logic for arms warriors in WoD, sadly that turned out bad, so I hope for all the paladins they change their minds. I'm sure there are better ways to change prot without making it a completely new spec.

[Deleted]

Liminara is doing his proverbial Kanye Best, and a large part of this community only has access to the EU forums, which it is more or less accepted that Blizzard only provides for show and does not actually read to any serious extent. I would write diatribe upon diatribe if I thought anyone was actually paying attention to it.

If you make an level 1 on US, which should be doable within the limits of a non paid account, you should be able to post on the US forums.

[Deleted]

Hopefully if you guys start making noise about this, we can eventually raise enough of a ruckus to get Blizzard to make some changes for us.

We've all been making noise about this for months, ever since the preview came out.

[Won7on]

Which is what I said in my post.

These issues were brought up DAY ONE, when the first preview came out. Practically everyone, including Theck himself, were tweeting about how removing Holy Power would cause problems, but Blizzard is stubborn enough to ignore that for 3 straight months now.

I know because I was also one of those people complaining from day one.

Obviously, what I mean is that we need youtube videos and big posts to become popular to make these issues more widely known.

[Deleted]

If you make an level 1 on US, which should be doable within the limits of a non paid account, you should be able to post on the US forums.

While this is true, there is a stark difference between posting on a lvl 1 that could be literally fucking anyone and posting on a tricked-out lvl 100 from a guild with a recognizable name in terms of argumentative clout.

I think by far our best option is some sort of manifesto that as many players as possible somehow publicly "sign off" on. I also think that now that we finally seem to have put what feels like years of contention to bed, it's important that we realize that in situations like this, streamers like Slootbag and Towellie are some of the most powerful resources we have available. Public, loud resistance on your streams is very likely to turn the opinion of your viewers (and in turn acquaintances of these viewers via disseminated word-of-mouth) against the current Alpha Prot design in a far more efficient manner than any MMO-C or Alpha forum post ever could.