[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Saracens]

-snip- What alternative names would you give to either prot pally and prot warrior?

Justiciar or Ascendant for Paladins.

[Gallahadd]

+1 vote for Justicar.

Ascendant sounds too shamany.

[jsantana2418]

Justiciar or Ascendant for Paladins.

Guardian would seem more appropriate for a holy protector (Prot pally) than the guardian druid, thematically. Given the current state of prot pally an appropriate description of the spec is the 'Consecrated Stone.' Templar possible name.

[Saracens]

Guardian would seem more appropriate for a holy protector (Prot pally) than the guardian druid, thematically. Given the current state of prot pally an appropriate description of the spec is the 'Consecrated Stone.' Templar possible name.

I agree, but I was trying to think more of a holy knight rather than the holy protector. Something more aggressive rather than stoic. I don't know.

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+1 vote for Justicar.

Ascendant sounds too shamany.

You're a shaman.

[jsantana2418]

I agree, but I was trying to think more of a holy knight rather than the holy protector. Something more aggressive rather than stoic. I don't know.

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You're a shaman.

Judicator?

[Saracens]

Judicator?

All Paladins judge, by definition. I want something more about being a watcher or peacekeeper when I think about a Paladin tank.

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Those are just my two pennies though. There are a lot of Paladin tanks out there.

[Deleted]

I've always liked Crusader, but you just know people would flip their shit over the Diablo counterpart.

[Shieldi]

I think crusader would be good, people are already flipping their shit over blessed hammer anyways

[jsantana2418]

I think crusader would be good, people are already flipping their shit over blessed hammer anyways

Blessed hammer looks lame and we have abilities called hammer of the righteous yet artifact is a sword? Seraphim still rocking that ugly animation in the beta?

[Tumble]

Very few of us like how the class plays. We're mostly okay with the removal of HoPo. Class plays like anus, basically 0 interaction outside of the stupid hamfisted judgement shit. People will argue that SoTR charges is a resource, but you should laugh at those people and call them silly.

Seraphim returning is a step in the right direction. Whether's it's strong or not currently doesn't matter so I won't bother mentioning it. It does get some passive defense from a few artifact traits but otherwise it's the same "put SoTR up" with a boring playstyle.

What would you suggest they add. While I enjoy seraphim, its an odd talent really. It uses sotr charges to boost stats, most notably mastery, but mastery from memory only boosts the dmg reduction during sotr. I could be wrong, but that seems fairly odd to me. I'm not in front of my computer so ignore me if I'm wrong.

It would be cool if sotr became a resource on its own. Maybe have judgment and avengers shield reduce the recharge time, add an extra charge for a total of 4, and reduce the dmg it does to accommodate the 4th charge. It would also be nice to see seraphim be able to be kept up 100% of the time if played properly.

[YourPalFleisch]

If SotR charges become Holy Power Mk. II why did we get rid of Mk. I? Protection Paladin has been underwhelming to the point of insulting since their induction into Alpha. Lots of suggestions on how to fix what's there, lots of people letting Blizzard know that the changes are not well-received...

We get three lines in the latest build.

Ret has 28, 29 pages of feedback, they're bad damage... they got nerfed.

I honestly don't think there's malice behind Blizz's moves quite honestly. But I'm starting to suspect the dev in charge of Paladins is grossly incompetent at making a fun spectrum of specs. You might wanna ask someone less salty than I though.

Justice is my vote.

[celinamuna]

What would you suggest they add. While I enjoy seraphim, its an odd talent really. It uses sotr charges to boost stats, most notably mastery, but mastery from memory only boosts the dmg reduction during sotr. I could be wrong, but that seems fairly odd to me. I'm not in front of my computer so ignore me if I'm wrong.

It would be cool if sotr became a resource on its own. Maybe have judgment and avengers shield reduce the recharge time, add an extra charge for a total of 4, and reduce the dmg it does to accommodate the 4th charge. It would also be nice to see seraphim be able to be kept up 100% of the time if played properly.

Mastery also increases block chance and AP. And most notably it also buffs crit/haste/vers which is kind of important.
I have no idea how you imagine "keep up sera 100% of the time" being remotely balanced w/o it being shit, or why that would be a good thing.

Honestly as it is right now, the main issues with the spec atm are :
1) Too much sotr recharge happens passively vs actively
2) AS has no defensive benefit outside of artifact absorb
3) BH is still cancur on small boss models
4) (not really spec issue) current scaling is potato

[Tumble]

If SotR charges become Holy Power Mk. II why did we get rid of Mk. I? Protection Paladin has been underwhelming to the point of insulting since their induction into Alpha.

I wouldn't consider it a version of holy power, yes its a spender, but not in the traditional sense. While it's a spender for seraphim, it's also a damaging ability for when you just need to whack stuff, but it also comes with its own temp buff. So having one resource that you have to monitor depending on what you need, that also requires you to spend them before you cap them without overlapping them, could be interesting.

Mastery also increases block chance and AP. And most notably it also buffs crit/haste/vers which is kind of important.
I have no idea how you imagine "keep up sera 100% of the time" being remotely balanced w/o it being shit, or why that would be a good thing.

Honestly as it is right now, the main issues with the spec atm are :
1) Too much sotr recharge happens passively vs actively
2) AS has no defensive benefit outside of artifact absorb
3) BH is still cancur on small boss models
4) (not really spec issue) current scaling is potato

Like I said I couldn't remember what all it buffed, I was on break when I was reading this thread. Keeping seraphim up 100% could be very viable if the spell is tuned around it being up 100% of the time. That way we truly would have to manage sotr charges properly. As for your list, how would you make the recharges more active, like I suggested and have the recharge time lowered every time you use AS and judgment?
The absorb on AS is pretty neat I think, I don't know what else you want from it, not every ability has to piggy back another spell. It's better than it was and the absorb could most definitely be coupled with other cooldowns for big damage phases.
As far as BH being "cancur" I can't tell in your context if it's good for us and bad for them or bad for us and good for them? I am enjoying the whack-a-mole that crusaders judgment adds to the spec.

[Deleted]

What would you suggest they add. While I enjoy seraphim, its an odd talent really. It uses sotr charges to boost stats, most notably mastery, but mastery from memory only boosts the dmg reduction during sotr. I could be wrong, but that seems fairly odd to me. I'm not in front of my computer so ignore me if I'm wrong.

It would be cool if sotr became a resource on its own. Maybe have judgment and avengers shield reduce the recharge time, add an extra charge for a total of 4, and reduce the dmg it does to accommodate the 4th charge. It would also be nice to see seraphim be able to be kept up 100% of the time if played properly.

Mastery also increases AP and block chance. Also it will only use up to 2 charges, so you will be able to get 2-3 uses of SoTR in between each use of Seraphim dependent on Haste.

I personally enjoyed Holy Power, as it was just a builder/spender resource with a different skin. It was essentially rage. Judgement/Crusader Strike (Revenge/Shield Slam) gave you 1 HoPo (or 20 rage) and when you had varying amounts of HoPo (rage) you would spend X amount on a spender. However I know we won't see HoPo again - and that's fine. However, it wasn't replaced with anything as SoTR charges are not a resource.

I feel that the class needs some more interaction between it's abilities. Currently all we have is Judgement reducing the CD on SoTR. That's it. Before, AS buffed SoTR/LoTP but that encouraged sitting on AS procs and/or SoTR charges, fishing for a GC proc, which wasn't fun. Having consecration turn HoTR into AoE was cool, but there's no reason to not choose Blessed Hammer currently - the 15% DR on auto attack swings is pretty huge when you consider that it essentially has 0 CD and that it will be hitting a bosses larger hitbox multiple times. A good tank would never need Bastion of Light and Judgement triggering GC is pointless as AS is only damage.

They've definitely made improvements, such as the changes to Consecration interaction, but it hasn't alleviated the feeling of playing like a DPS class with an AM button. Plus significantly nerfing our self healing - something many would agree is a very Paladin-like attribute - is also annoying.

We're just spamming buttons, waiting to use our SoTR at the right time. Whereas before, we had a priority list as standard but our Tier-18 set bonuses (which I wish they had made baseline for legion) shook it up a little bit. You got a string of AS procs and you could bang out 3-5 or more in a row. That was fun, that was interesting. It broke up the rotation and gave us something interesting which an absorb component as well as increased resource gen. Yes it was RNG, but the class functioned appropriately without it. I'd love to see the 4-set return, and possibly have GC procs reduce the cooldown on SoTR by a significant amount. Most of our cooldowns just happen passively - Judgement has a CD and reduces the CD of SoTR by a small amount.

[Gallahadd]

Another patch, another bizarre prot update...

Why drop the value to zero, why not just remove it? Can someone check to see if the effect has been removed or if it's just a tooltip hiccup.

Edit: while we're on the subject of changes we'd like. I think Grand a Crusader should really have some kind of cd reduction for SHoR. The whole point of it before was the bonus HP. Not the CD refresh, don't understand why they kept the proc, but removed the most important part...

I'd love to see judge with 2 sec 4 on crit and GC giving 8 seconds off.

[jsantana2418]

Mastery also increases AP and block chance. Also it will only use up to 2 charges, so you will be able to get 2-3 uses of SoTR in between each use of Seraphim dependent on Haste.

I personally enjoyed Holy Power, as it was just a builder/spender resource with a different skin. It was essentially rage. Judgement/Crusader Strike (Revenge/Shield Slam) gave you 1 HoPo (or 20 rage) and when you had varying amounts of HoPo (rage) you would spend X amount on a spender. However I know we won't see HoPo again - and that's fine. However, it wasn't replaced with anything as SoTR charges are not a resource.

I feel that the class needs some more interaction between it's abilities. Currently all we have is Judgement reducing the CD on SoTR. That's it. Before, AS buffed SoTR/LoTP but that encouraged sitting on AS procs and/or SoTR charges, fishing for a GC proc, which wasn't fun. Having consecration turn HoTR into AoE was cool, but there's no reason to not choose Blessed Hammer currently - the 15% DR on auto attack swings is pretty huge when you consider that it essentially has 0 CD and that it will be hitting a bosses larger hitbox multiple times. A good tank would never need Bastion of Light and Judgement triggering GC is pointless as AS is only damage.

They've definitely made improvements, such as the changes to Consecration interaction, but it hasn't alleviated the feeling of playing like a DPS class with an AM button. Plus significantly nerfing our self healing - something many would agree is a very Paladin-like attribute - is also annoying.

We're just spamming buttons, waiting to use our SoTR at the right time. Whereas before, we had a priority list as standard but our Tier-18 set bonuses (which I wish they had made baseline for legion) shook it up a little bit. You got a string of AS procs and you could bang out 3-5 or more in a row. That was fun, that was interesting. It broke up the rotation and gave us something interesting which an absorb component as well as increased resource gen. Yes it was RNG, but the class functioned appropriately without it. I'd love to see the 4-set return, and possibly have GC procs reduce the cooldown on SoTR by a significant amount. Most of our cooldowns just happen passively - Judgement has a CD and reduces the CD of SoTR by a small amount.

Definitely like the idea of GC contributing to the cooldown reduction of SOTR by x seconds, I don't know the math behind choosing Crusader's judgment/First Avenger(GC proc reduces SoTR CD) vs Consecrated Hammer/BH. Regardless, if they implement additional ways to interact with the SoTR charge system through abilities would you feel better in knowing you're still smashing your keyboard with a filler to fish for GC procs and hitting everything else on cd. While you either don't cap on SoTR at 3 charges and timing it on specific incoming damage?

What depth SoTR charge system provides that HoPo didn't provide? To feel passive and more forgiving.

This is what I'm trying to say to use the prot warrior as an example: When I play a video game in this case tanking as a prot warrior I'm looking for a rhythmic flow that's dynamic to my gameplay that keeps me engaged and active decision making depending on the encounter. I have to build resource because my # 1 job is to survive while contribute to damage so now my abilities have meaning to me.

Let's smash SS/Revenge on CD and spam devastate for a proc reset of SS to increase my chance for more rage. How I'm going to spend it - Shield Block 2 charge system: low rage cost, weave into rotation to smooth damage or reserve it for many incoming damage in a short period(buffs my SS damage, awesome!). Ignored pain: costly so spend wisely also don't rage cap either what are my options for this? If I don't really need to use it, well spend the rage into focused rage or spend it on ignored pain.

Now for the prot pally and let's assume GC procs reduces the CD as well on SoTR: Stare at SoTR charges don't stay capped and don't burn through it all either. One AM ability that mitigates physical/magic damage, ok great. i gotta hit Judgment on CD so I can have quicker access to a consumed charge, what now? Fish for GC procs, spam my HoTR(BH) and pray for a nice chance to proc GC while Judgment is on CD and oh yeah stand inside my consecrate I could really use the bonus effect, so I have the option to fill in the gap in my rotation by either spamming HOTR(BH) or use up a SOTR charge for more damage and smooth damage taken? What are my option by withholding SoTR if I dont really want to use it in that moment? Crap it makes no sense to withhold it because it's a two-in-one ability. You see where I'm going with this? Because it's a damage and damage reduction ability it feels wasted when you don't need it and it feels wasted when you don't use it because it's a shared damage done/damage reduction ability.

Maybe it's in blizzard intent to make the class passive for entry players and because it's flashy it definitely perks a player base who love flashy things; while maybe making prot pally feel like a complex spec when you consider making good use of their utilities(Blessing spells) and FS/AoL. The issue I see is that prot pally AM it's a two in one I feel limits the scope of options and provides a simple rotational gameplay with little depth.

So, either do something with the damage done/damage reduce component to offer choice like monks with iron skin and purifying brew and keep SoTR with it's 3 charge system yellown a resource bar that takes away the CD reduction of judgment and make a pretty and less passive talent choices. or add a yellow resource bar (100 holy power) that you fill up with rotational abilties and GC procs doubles the amount. Talent consecrated hammer/BH combo halves the resource contribution. Spend the accumulated resource on SoTR (30-40 HoPo each) and maybe add in ability called holy might (cost 10-20 HoPo) to empower your next Judgment damage and judging your enemy (crit) increases your block chance by x amount for 3-6 sec or SoTR cost/value (judgment: thematically I want this spell to feel powerful) or empower your next HoTR as holy damage (BH damage % amp). perform the proper tuning around this idea if it makes sense, LOL.

[Shieldi]

Blessed hammer looks lame and we have abilities called hammer of the righteous yet artifact is a sword? Seraphim still rocking that ugly animation in the beta?

That's your opinion, I think Blessed Hammer looks ok, though maybe a bit distracting.

Yep Seraphim still changes the appearance of your weapon/shield and gives you a crown in the beta.

also remember you will be able to unlock the Divine Protector artifact appearance, which has a mace and looks a lot more Paladin to me than Truthguard

[Shieldi]

RIP Blessed Hammer spam

[Gallahadd]

Woot woot. I like the new layout, tbh the only tier I can see myself having trouble with is 100.

Do you go for Righteous Protector, which increases your healing and AW uptime, Seraphim for the Dps boost or Last Defender for bubble/taunt spam...

[Shieldi]

bubble/taunt talent is actually in row 75, Final Stand.

Last Defender tooltip says

"Each enemy within 8 yards reduces the damage that you take and increases the damage that you deal by 3%. This effect has diminishing returns."