[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Damonharp]

Sotr spam isn't really an option when I'm specced into sera though, since I've only got one charge after I pop it. Maybe I should just not pop it.

Sera + Bastion will give you 4 charges of SoTR vs His 6. Popping sera + wings + 4 SoTR is just mad burst damage.

[Deleted]

Sera + Bastion will give you 4 charges of SoTR vs His 6. Popping sera + wings + 4 SoTR is just mad burst damage.

Yes, it takes others down to about 50% HP, at least it did when I tried. And then you can continue to tickle them for the next 3 minutes until BoL is up again.

[Damonharp]

Yes, it takes others down to about 50% HP, at least it did when I tried. And then you can continue to tickle them for the next 3 minutes until BoL is up again.

You can only tickle them until bastion is up again? Damage output seems to be pretty wild even outside bastion

[Deleted]

I was doing a WQ in one of those pvp areas and it felt like I wasn't doing any damage to them. DHs and shadow priests healed up way faster than I could damage them, had it not been for two friends who were with me I would have had not a chance to even take them below 50% HP. But then again... I'm a total pvp noob. What do I know? ^^

//edit:
Our PvP Template:
All damage done reduced by 15%
Stamina: 85%
Mastery: 25%
Versatility: 0%

Spell Multipliers
Avenger's Shield deals 50% damage in PvP
Shield of the Righteous deals 50% damage in PvP
Light of the Protector heals for 50% in PvP
Hand of the Protector heals for 50% in PvP

Depending on our stats, we lose a lot more than 50% for those abilities, since we lose 15%, all of our versatility (probably around 5-10% for most), 50% and our mastery is set to 25% (which can be either a gain or a loss depending on the initial value). In any case, to me it felt like even our burst hits like a wet noodle.

[Pallywally]

I absolutely love my prot Pally at the moment. I went prot during Highmaul, but mostly played Ret during WOD outside of a few raids. Watching Slootbag tank, gave me some input and I wanted to do that in Legion. So far only done normals and HCs, but I am already at 833 ilvl.

The one thing i notice the most, is the versatility of a prot Pally. I dont know if other tanks can do this, but when I notice the group are low on DPS but have a good healer, switch to Sera and blow up everything. DPS is good but healer is lacking? no worries, switch to Righteous Protector. Playing with a Resto Druid, Seraphim/Knight Templar, they just keep me topped so no use of Hand of the Protector. Disc priest or Resto Shaman, Righteous Protector/Hand of The Protector for the extremely likely "OH SHIT!!" Moment. (disclaimer: Dont play healers, but from those I have seen, it seems like Disc/resto Shaman dont have the Oh Shit output of Resto Druid/Holy Pally in a pinch. Their sustain seems OK tho.) I just love the fact that as a Pally I can compensate and help out anyone struggling in order to help clear the content.

Not a top tank, but I have not had anyone yell at me for under preforming yet. Might happen once i start mythic :P , but I feel like we have the tools to clear and to be extremely versatile in either helping out a struggling healer or outputting some real good DPS to compensate for failures there.

[Adaren]

Depending on our stats, we lose a lot more than 50% for those abilities, since we lose 15%, all of our versatility (probably around 5-10% for most), 50% and our mastery is set to 25% (which can be either a gain or a loss depending on the initial value). In any case, to me it felt like even our burst hits like a wet noodle.

I haven't been keeping a close eye on the new PvP mechanics, but I'm pretty sure that all specs now use a "default" set of stats in PvP. Your gear has no effect (though you get a small bonus based purely off of how high your ilvl is). Those percentages would be applied to the "default" stats, so we get no Versatility on our default PvP template. Your gear's actual stat priority doesn't affect anything, though.

[laalipop]

Hi guys,
Made the switch from healing to tanking for my guild and I have some probably basic questions. I'm at work so I can't link info well, but I'll update my post when I can.

Is Icy Veins lying with the mention of standing in Consecration will cause double dipping for SoTR and LotP if you take Consecrated Hammer? Tooltip doesn't update with the information but we all know Blizz and tooltips.

What trinkets are good to shoot for? I know the one from the dragon in VH is good, but right now I have two dps trinkets and I think it is actually really making me spike.

SotR Management: I'm currently floating a charge for mechanics/emergency, is this a good idea? I will blow my last charge, use BoL and immediately pop another charge as a defensive, I noticed that I can front load all the time if I wanted but I don't see much point in that.

Cooldown usage: Should I be aiming to use my shorter cooldowns first or my longer ones? Aka, should I be using GoAK first or my Artifact ability? I guess this ties into SotR usage as well, since Cooldowns are used to bridge the gap where you're vulnerable right?

Thanks so much for your help.

[Valenhil]

I was doing a WQ in one of those pvp areas and it felt like I wasn't doing any damage to them. DHs and shadow priests healed up way faster than I could damage them, had it not been for two friends who were with me I would have had not a chance to even take them below 50% HP. But then again... I'm a total pvp noob. What do I know? ^^

//edit:
Our PvP Template:
All damage done reduced by 15%
Stamina: 85%
Mastery: 25%
Versatility: 0%

Spell Multipliers
Avenger's Shield deals 50% damage in PvP
Shield of the Righteous deals 50% damage in PvP
Light of the Protector heals for 50% in PvP
Hand of the Protector heals for 50% in PvP

Depending on our stats, we lose a lot more than 50% for those abilities, since we lose 15%, all of our versatility (probably around 5-10% for most), 50% and our mastery is set to 25% (which can be either a gain or a loss depending on the initial value). In any case, to me it felt like even our burst hits like a wet noodle.

Everyone gets reduced damage somewhere, not just us. Even with the 50% reduction those are still relatively hard hitting abilities.

Prot paladin damage is entirely reliant on Inquisition, as it increases not only your own but anyone else's damage attacking that target too.

But generally we're not "full time" damage dealers. When you're waiting for Seraphim to come back up, it's generally better to flash of light(with Guarded by the Light) whoever's getting hit.

[TheRabidDeer]

Have I been unlucky in the groups I have been with or is Prot really squishy compared to other tank specs? When I tank mythics I am constantly dipping low and having to use every cooldown possible on pretty much every single pull. Meanwhile, when I go holy I generally am able to heal other thanks fairly easily. I am ilvl 838 when prot so I am not really that low or anything

[OrcsRLame]

Have I been unlucky in the groups I have been with or is Prot really squishy compared to other tank specs? When I tank mythics I am constantly dipping low and having to use every cooldown possible on pretty much every single pull. Meanwhile, when I go holy I generally am able to heal other thanks fairly easily. I am ilvl 838 when prot so I am not really that low or anything

Prot paladin has a very high skill cap compared to other tanks, but is incredibly survivable when played well. We have the absolute best on demand mitigation in the game, bar none. Our passive mitigation is quite poor relative to our overall health though, so we can be quite spiky. As a prot paladin you cannot react to damage, you have to predict it. It's not, "Oh I'm getting low, better hit buttons" like other tanks, it's, "I'm going to spike in 1.2 seconds, I'm gonna use mitigation at full HP."

If you are a Jedi, if you can see the future and predict damage, no other tank will touch your survivability.

[TheRabidDeer]

Prot paladin has a very high skill cap compared to other tanks, but is incredibly survivable when played well. We have the absolute best on demand mitigation in the game, bar none. Our passive mitigation is quite poor relative to our overall health though, so we can be quite spiky. As a prot paladin you cannot react to damage, you have to predict it. It's not, "Oh I'm getting low, better hit buttons" like other tanks, it's, "I'm going to spike in 1.2 seconds, I'm gonna use mitigation at full HP."

If you are a Jedi, if you can see the future and predict damage, no other tank will touch your survivability.

I agree that it CAN be incredibly survivable but I don't like risking a heart attack whenever I tank a dungeon purely because I mistimed an ability. Sure, if you play like a god prot feels "OK" but it feels like the requirements for playing prot paladins are so far above every other tank that it is absurd.

I haven't healed as a holy paladin since BC and I just healed mythic eye of azshara without beacon of virtue and it felt easier than tanking by far

[Marrilaife]

Have I been unlucky in the groups I have been with or is Prot really squishy compared to other tank specs? When I tank mythics I am constantly dipping low and having to use every cooldown possible on pretty much every single pull. Meanwhile, when I go holy I generally am able to heal other thanks fairly easily. I am ilvl 838 when prot so I am not really that low or anything

I don't know, my guild's resto shaman claims I'm easy to heal while demon hunter tanks are his worst nightmare.

But generally I think the low cd abilities like artifact or ardent defender are meant to be used on trash. Especially artifact is better on aoe than single target. You can also deliberately wait until you're ~30% hp to use the self heal as it does more job at low hp.

Also abusing grand crusader procs to chain interrupt nasty casters helps a lot to prevent damage intake, there's few annoying stuff you cannot interrupt sadly (stone throwers in neltharion's lair, archer's volley in black rook hold etc.), also there are multiple situations when mobs put diseases or poisons on you and in those cases it's also good to be a pally instead of a non-dispel class.

I was doing a WQ in one of those pvp areas and it felt like I wasn't doing any damage to them.

I was under the impression the pvp stat templates don't apply to world pvp? In world pvp only honor talents activate not the template. Did they change anything recently?

[OrcsRLame]

I agree that it CAN be incredibly survivable but I don't like risking a heart attack whenever I tank a dungeon purely because I mistimed an ability. Sure, if you play like a god prot feels "OK" but it feels like the requirements for playing prot paladins are so far above every other tank that it is absurd.

I haven't healed as a holy paladin since BC and I just healed mythic eye of azshara without beacon of virtue and it felt easier than tanking by far

If you want a more faceroll style of tank, I'd suggest druid. Or at least stop using Seraphim and go Last Defender for dungeons. Stam trinkets help too if you want to spike less.

If you play like a god, prot is not okay, it is the best tank, period. A prot paladin at ~830 ilvl, could literally survive a 15 million damage hit without cheesing via bubble or AD. No other tank can say the same.

[TheRabidDeer]

If you want a more faceroll style of tank, I'd suggest druid. Or at least stop using Seraphim and go Last Defender for dungeons. Stam trinkets help too if you want to spike less.

If you play like a god, prot is not okay, it is the best tank, period. A prot paladin at ~830 ilvl, could literally survive a 15 million damage hit without cheesing via bubble or AD. No other tank can say the same.

Why last defender over Righteous Protector?

Also, I don't think that a literal impossible 1 shot ability is a fair comparison when the major worry is consistent and ongoing damage.

Speaking as an ex-healer I really hate the concept of a tank being designed around being consistently under 40% hp, especially when heals these days for actual healers heal such a small percent of the health pool of tanks.

[OrcsRLame]

Why last defender over Righteous Protector?

Also, I don't think that a literal impossible 1 shot ability is a fair comparison when the major worry is consistent and ongoing damage.

Speaking as an ex-healer I really hate the concept of a tank being designed around being consistently under 40% hp, especially when heals these days for actual healers heal such a small percent of the health pool of tanks.

Because Last Defender gives consistent mitigation on AoE packs. 5 Mobs is 14% passive DR.

Also, I mentioned a 15 million damage spike to conceptually illustrate the idea that paladins can more or less survive anything. That mitigation can be spread over a larger or smaller time frame. As I said, on demand mitigation. Though mythic Gul'dan does have an ability that hits for 15 million damage, so it's not literally impossible. The point is that paladins have incredible control over their own mitigation, and they have overall the highest mitigation and competitive self healing.

Furthermore, if you think dungeons are consistent and ongoing damage, then you lack understanding of dungeon mechanics. Basically every melee mob in dungeons has some form of special attack that bursts for a high amount of damage. Power Attack in Halls of Valor, Coup De Grace in BRH, Brutal Assault also in Black Rook Hold, etc. Enemies that don't have a power attack type mechanic still do their damage in bursts, as they interrupt their auto swings to cast spells. There's a rhythm, melee, spell, melee, spell, melee, melee, melee. Lots of bosses work that way too, a good example being Helya, who does 3-7 melee swings between each spell. When she does 7 melee swings in a row, that will feel to both the tank and healer like a high damage spike. and at the start of that sequence is when you need to use your shit. It's not RNG, it goes in cycles.

If your paladin tanks are consistently under 40% HP they're just bad and getting carried by Faith's Armor and HotP. They could be mitigating so much more damage if they understood mechanics properly.

[Sepelio]

I go sub 40% every like 10 seconds on my paladin when i pull 15 mobs, don't think the hp value is any indication of skill.

[TheRabidDeer]

Because Last Defender gives consistent mitigation on AoE packs. 5 Mobs is 14% passive DR.

Also, I mentioned a 15 million damage spike to conceptually illustrate the idea that paladins can more or less survive anything. That mitigation can be spread over a larger or smaller time frame. As I said, on demand mitigation. Though mythic Gul'dan does have an ability that hits for 15 million damage, so it's not literally impossible. The point is that paladins have incredible control over their own mitigation, and they have overall the highest mitigation and competitive self healing.

Furthermore, if you think dungeons are consistent and ongoing damage, then you lack understanding of dungeon mechanics. Basically every melee mob in dungeons has some form of special attack that bursts for a high amount of damage. Power Attack in Halls of Valor, Coup De Grace in BRH, Brutal Assault also in Black Rook Hold, etc. Enemies that don't have a power attack type mechanic still do their damage in bursts, as they interrupt their auto swings to cast spells. There's a rhythm, melee, spell, melee, spell, melee, melee, melee. Lots of bosses work that way too, a good example being Helya, who does 3-7 melee swings between each spell. When she does 7 melee swings in a row, that will feel to both the tank and healer like a high damage spike. and at the start of that sequence is when you need to use your shit. It's not RNG, it goes in cycles.

If your paladin tanks are consistently under 40% HP they're just bad and getting carried by Faith's Armor and HotP. They could be mitigating so much more damage if they understood mechanics properly.

It feels like you are overestimating the so-called rhythm that is present in dungeons (and mythic+ is where I am REALLY worried for prot paladins). Not all mobs attack or cast at the same time. Yes, of course there are abilities which you can interrupt or avoid but to be required to be that consistent or risk taking heavy spike damage seems absurd.

I also find it ridiculous that you are citing the 13.5 million gul'dan damage ability when there is a mechanic built into the fight that prevents the damage...

Maybe I've just had less than stellar healers like I say, but it feels like Prot is way more spiky than some of the other tank classes (particular compared against Warriors)

[Sepelio]

Protection paladin still is the spikiest tank, especially if you're running seraphim, fairly retarded to try and debate otherwise. That being said you have so many self control tools to deal with that.

[OrcsRLame]

It feels like you are overestimating the so-called rhythm that is present in dungeons (and mythic+ is where I am REALLY worried for prot paladins). Not all mobs attack or cast at the same time. Yes, of course there are abilities which you can interrupt or avoid but to be required to be that consistent or risk taking heavy spike damage seems absurd.

I also find it ridiculous that you are citing the 13.5 million gul'dan damage ability when there is a mechanic built into the fight that prevents the damage...

Maybe I've just had less than stellar healers like I say, but it feels like Prot is way more spiky than some of the other tank classes (particular compared against Warriors)

Prot paladin is the spikiest tank, but they're also the best. Which is why Serenity's main tank is going to play prot paladin for EN progression. Unless, you know, one of his alts gets a legendary. My point is that a perfectly played prot paladin can survive better in basically all situations than any other tank. I say basically because there is something to be said for kiting capability.

[Sepelio]

Prot paladins toolkit is also built for raid boss tanking, not 5 mans, granted they are fucking amazing in 5 mans.