U-kippers.

[Shadowmelded]

Yeah, it's another “Are Ukip benign idiots or malicious hypocrites” thread.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...tml?1415879852

Now, a few questions for the Ukip supporters;

- How do you reconcile Ukip supposedly standing up for the common man in the face of the establishment with this view on healthcare? (Hint; the changes would seemingly be beneficial to the corporatist establishment)

- Does it matter to you that the proposed change contradicts Farage's recent statements regarding the NHS?

- Does this (in your eyes) diminish the idea that “Ukip [...] values an overarching, unifying British culture, which is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain and British values” when the principles and values of the NHS are a point of pride for British culture that Farage would apparently do away with?

- Does this (ominous) statement worry you?

In an interview with the New Statesman, Farage declared: "I'd do a deal with the Devil if he got me what I wanted"

[MerinPally]

It's always difficult when you actually have to make policies using a budget rather than shout an assortment of buzzwords at dumb people.

[Deleted]

I think it's amazing how everything Farage wants to change immidiatly gets assaulted and questioned by millions but when another politician changes something it's relatively quiet.

But that's the demonizing of people that try to change things I suppose.

[Chelly]

I think it's amazing how everything Farage wants to change immidiatly gets assaulted and questioned by millions but when another politician changes something it's relatively quiet.

But that's the demonizing of people that try to change things I suppose.

It depends on what they want to change. Any politician would be questioned and assaulted if he/she would want to change the current healthcare system in GB.

But good job playing the victim card I suppose.

[Vaelanor]

I think it's amazing how everything Farage wants to change immidiatly gets assaulted and questioned by millions but when another politician changes something it's relatively quiet.

But that's the demonizing of people that try to change things I suppose.

This makes no sense. If someone wants to change something and people don't say shit, then they're in favor or indifferent to the change. If they do complain then obviously they are against the change. Is that hard to understand?

[MerinPally]

I think it's amazing how everything Farage wants to change immidiatly gets assaulted and questioned by millions but when another politician changes something it's relatively quiet.

"Stop pointing out our flaws and fuck ups, that's so unfair and mean of you guys"

[Deleted]

It depends on what they want to change.
But good job playing the victim card I suppose.

But it doesnt really, It's just farage that gets assaulted because he wants to do different things than what's been done the last 30 odd years.

It's hardly playing the victim card, it's being realistic about the current society in many western countries, especially the EU.

This makes no sense. If someone wants to change something and people don't say shit, then they're in favor or indifferent to the change. If they do complain then obviously they are against the change. Is that hard to understand?

But that's now how this works, Farage is controversional so people automatically disagree.

"Stop pointing out our flaws and fuck ups, that's so unfair and mean of you guys"

And this is why people that make decisions based on their feelings instead of data and charts do not belong in politics.

[Deleted]

Get rid of Farage then maybe people would start taking UKIP more seriously, until then do not try and convince the average person on the street that this millionaire born with a silver spoon in his mouth understands their plight.

[Deleted]

Aren't the conservatives gradually doing the same anyway with the NHS and privatization ? Not a UKIP supporter myself (lab/lib here)

Also : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30045935

Something needs to be done with the NHS that removes it from being affected by governments every 4 years without it going Privatization route. Same with education

[Shadowmelded]

I think it's amazing how everything Farage wants to change immidiatly gets assaulted and questioned by millions but when another politician changes something it's relatively quiet.

But that's the demonizing of people that try to change things I suppose.

So... it's a welcome change?

But it doesnt really, It's just farage that gets assaulted because he wants to do different things than what's been done the last 30 odd years.

I'd argue that privatization has been the norm for the past 30 years and it's not much different from what the Tory's want, it's just much more rapid.

But that's now how this works, Farage is controversional so people automatically disagree.

It's not so much Farage I'm questioning here as the supporters of Farage. What reasoning are they using to make this internally consistent and how many principles are they willing to bend or 'compromise' on for independence from the EU?

[Deleted]

So... it's a welcome change?



I'd argue that privatization has been the norm for the past 30 years and it's not much different from what the Tory's want, it's just much more rapid.




It's not so much Farage I'm questioning here as the supporters of Farage. What reasoning are they using to make this internally consistent and how many principles are they willing to bend or 'compromise' on for independence from the EU?

It's not all that Farage wants that's different it's the key elements which gets everyone's panties in a twist, this way they automatically disagree with everything Farage wants to change, this is modern day politics. It's more that there's been a massive dissapointment / annoyance with the EU that people are willing to go extreme lengths just to get rid of it.

The current EU system does not show any interest in changing the current way it operates despite pleas from Farage (and others) for a different system, this leads to more disagreement and well, the case stated above.

Edit: some clarification in the point im trying to make.

The thing about UKIP and Farage mainly pulling out public debate, is not the sake of the debate it's just to make Farage and UKIP look bad in the eyes of the voters and the ones who vote on him, people generally fear change of their old habits and now that there is someone pleading for it, they try to demonize said person. It doesn't even have to be Farage, in fact 12 years ago the same happened in the Netherlands, Fortuyn ended up being KILLED for his ideas, things like that should NEVER happen in a democracy the fact that it happened shows a significat failure in the ability to politically lead countries. The things that people are doing to Farage is the same as what builded up Fortuyn's death. I can just hope that Farage either gets beaten in a political way, like it should happen, instead of being shot. I mean people have thrown all kinds of shit at him already, even physical. That is not politics that is enforcing your views on someone and forcing them to agree with you by using violence.

[Shadowmelded]

It's not all that Farage wants that's different it's the key elements which gets everyone's panties in a twist, this way they automatically disagree with everything Farage wants to change, this is modern day politics.

So which is it? Either they disagree automatically because it's Farage or they disagree after looking at what he's actually saying and find it unrealistic.

It's more that there's been a massive dissapointment / annoyance with the EU that people are willing to go extreme lengths just to get rid of it.

Weren't you just disparaging voting on an entirely emotional basis?

The current EU system does not show any interest in changing the current way it operates despite pleas from Farage (and others) for a different system, this leads to more disagreement and well, the case stated above.

I wouldn't consider Farage sabotaging the process as a genuine attempt to improve the EU. Grandstanding to raise your own profile through youtube videos that venerate anti-diplomacy is hardly engaging in the process.

Anyway like I said, this isn't strictly about Farage, I'm more interested in the opinions of UKIP supporters. If this was just a pot-shot at Farage I'd be mentioning his coalition in the EU.

[Deleted]

Farage is not "the common man" (whatever the fuck that is anyway), he is not "standing up for the British people", he is a lying corrupt, borderline fascist scumbag who is out for himself pure and simple.


He has basically stolen tax payers money, he takes millions from the EU (and sides with the scum of humanity such as rape supporters to do so), he avoids tax, he wants to raise taxes on 90% of the populance and lower them for the richest 10%, he wants to privitise the NHS, he wants to remove consumer protection laws and worker protection legislation.

he has actively voted AGAINST measures which benefit the UK public.

As for "good old Nigel who likes a pint"....its fucking fake. He walked out of a pub when told he was more than welcome to drink there, but could not be filmed as the pub did not want to be politicised. He walked out, went down the street, found a pub which allowed a photo op, and did his "just having a pint mate.." routine.

The man is a total scumbag, he is an uber-tory. I hate the tories, but he is like a massively concentrated version of everything that is bad about the Tory party.


Is the EU perfect? no. But dont believe the decades of bullshit our media have fed you on it. We massively benefit from the EU, and we benefit from immigration, maybe it could be regulated more, but it is a massive benefit to this country.

[Deleted]

he is a lying corrupt, borderline fascist scumbag who is out for himself pure and simple.

This is ridiculous hyperbole. He's about as far away to fascist as any other currently active political party in Britain.

[Deleted]

This is ridiculous hyperbole. He's about as far away to fascist as any other currently active political party in Britain.

errr no. not really. You may want to go learn about who he actually is and who he associates with.

[Kalis]

Get rid of Farage then maybe people would start taking UKIP more seriously, until then do not try and convince the average person on the street that this millionaire born with a silver spoon in his mouth understands their plight.

Farage is the only reason that party is anywhere near where it is. Barring the MP who left the Tories recently, the rest of the party are unelectable.

[Zathrendar]

This is ridiculous hyperbole. He's about as far away to fascist as any other currently active political party in Britain.

This. But living in fantasy land, even though the current PM, with his rhetoric on "conspiracy theorising", or nutjobs like Ed Milliband, are far closer to fascism, is convenient for some.

Farage may be farther to the "right" than most, in the sense of being closer to classical liberalism, but he is no fascist and only a truly clueless imbecile would try and portray him as such.

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Farage is not "the common man" (whatever the fuck that is anyway), he is not "standing up for the British people", he is a lying corrupt, borderline fascist scumbag who is out for himself pure and simple.

Absolute rubbish. The "taxpayer money" he has utilised is money that both the government and the EU would appropriate anyway. He thinks it is better spent getting the UK out of the EU. You may disagree with him but stop pretending that he created this system.

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errr no. not really. You may want to go learn about who he actually is and who he associates with.

Do tell. Do you mean the Polish gentleman, with whom he formed an alliance to maintain his group in the European Parliament? Not sure how this means the man himself or his party are "fascist", or even that the Polish gentleman's views are the same as his party's at large.

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Get rid of Farage then maybe people would start taking UKIP more seriously, until then do not try and convince the average person on the street that this millionaire born with a silver spoon in his mouth understands their plight.

Marxian classist pseudo-science. How does his background preclude him from understanding the "average" (another self-congratulatory label, like "worker") person? He understands them better than Messrs Cameron, Milliband or Clegg. Or Brown, for that matter. The man is far more sensible and eloquent than a good deal of "average" people, who prop up the three party idiocracy led by the three aforementioned clowns. Why should he be removed? His party doesn't even masquerade as some redistributionist group of nutjobs, unlike Labour, which recently has taken to rebranding itself as the party of wealth creation, according to Milliband. You couldn't make it up. He isn't Tony Blair.

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Yeah, it's another “Are Ukip benign idiots or malicious hypocrites” thread.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...tml?1415879852

Now, a few questions for the Ukip supporters;

- How do you reconcile Ukip supposedly standing up for the common man in the face of the establishment with this view on healthcare? (Hint; the changes would seemingly be beneficial to the corporatist establishment)

- Does it matter to you that the proposed change contradicts Farage's recent statements regarding the NHS?

- Does this (in your eyes) diminish the idea that “Ukip [...] values an overarching, unifying British culture, which is open and inclusive to anyone who wishes to identify with Britain and British values” when the principles and values of the NHS are a point of pride for British culture that Farage would apparently do away with?

- Does this (ominous) statement worry you?

Why is the NHS's current structure conflated with the "good" of the "common man"? Makes absolutely no sense. I'm not certain why British culture would even begin to revolve around some defunct, bankrupt, moribund system like the NHS. How pathetic would that be.

I'm more inclined to view the anti-UKIP brigade as idiots these days, FWIW.

[Deleted]

This. But living in fantasy land, even though the current PM, with his rhetoric on "conspiracy theorising", or nutjobs like Ed Milliband, are far closer to fascism, is convenient for some.

Farage may be farther to the "right" than most, in the sense of being closer to classical liberalism, but he is no fascist and only a truly clueless imbecile would try and portray him as such.

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Absolute rubbish. The "taxpayer money" he has utilised is money that both the government and the EU would appropriate anyway. He thinks it is better spent getting the UK out of the EU. You may disagree with him but stop pretending that he created this system.

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Do tell. Do you mean the Polish gentleman, with whom he formed an alliance to maintain his group in the European Parliament? Not sure how this means the man himself or his party are "fascist", or even that the Polish gentleman's views are the same as his party's at large.

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Marxian classist pseudo-science. How does his background preclude him from understanding the "average" (another self-congratulatory label, like "worker") person? He understands them better than Messrs Cameron, Milliband or Clegg. Or Brown, for that matter.

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Why is the NHS's current structure conflated with the "good" of the "common man"? Makes absolutely no sense. I'm not certain why British culture would even begin to revolve around some defunct, bankrupt, moribund system like the NHS. How pathetic would that be.

I'm more inclined to view the anti-UKIP brigade as idiots these days, FWIW.

Me a marxist? Fuck me that is a good one.

[Zathrendar]

Me a marxist? Fuck me that is a good one.

You may or may not be - but that mode of thinking certainly is. The man spends far more time fraternising with "average people" than most supposed "average people" probably do.

[Shadowmelded]

Why is the NHS's current structure conflated with the "good" of the "common man"? Makes absolutely no sense.

I'm not defending it's current structure since it's a hollow example of what it once was. The idea in principle is sound, the increasing bureaucracy leading to inefficiency and subsequent privatization and outsourcing of services is a mockery.

I'm not certain why British culture would even begin to revolve around some defunct, bankrupt, moribund system like the NHS. How pathetic would that be.

No one said revolve. Please read more thoroughly; "When the principles and values of the NHS are a point of pride for British culture" Why is access-for- all healthcare irrespective of your finances something to look down on?

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/...rinciples.aspx

Please list which points you take offence to and why.

I'm more inclined to view the anti-UKIP brigade as idiots these days, FWIW.

Basically anyone that's not a party member?

Could you perhaps answer the questions posed in the OP though?