[Spoilers] Orgrim mood change within 10 minutes as Alliance?

[Aquamonkey]

What are cities populated of if not full of innocents? I know orcs are dumb but this Orgrim dude takes the cake. The cities and outposts taken in Talador weren't even military ones, just villages full of innocent draenei.

The way they portray Orgrim he is either blind as a bat, or oblivious beyond belief what his troops are doing under him.

...Conquering your enemies is not the same as killing innocents. There are not synonyms. You can kill innocents without conquering your enemies. You can conquer your enemies without killing innocents.

And people who take up arms to defend themselves count as combatants.

[Dreknar20]

Orgrim Doomhammer's WoD appearance was pretty disappointing in general.

pretty much. Too many characters, not enough time/content to implement them all in a big way

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What are cities populated of if not full of innocents?

They are at war with the Draenai, these are Draneai cities, making them not full of 'innocents'?

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The cities and outposts taken in Talador weren't even military ones

what difference does this make? Its the same arguments over the whole Theramore thing.
There are no 'military things you can attack and non-military things you cannot attack' - that's not how war works.
If it belongs to the enemy, you attack it, or do something to it, plain and simple - does not matter wtf it is

[Keyboard Champion]

First he was like "Leave no enemy alive! We will burn their cities!". After like 15 minutes he was like "I won't slay so many innocents!" to which Blackhand answers "Innocents?!". I found Blackhand's reaction and voice acting to be right in tune with the rp as he thinks Orgrim has gone crazy for some reason.

Nice writing, Metzen. So logical.

[Disreali]

And people who take up arms to defend themselves count as combatants.

That's always a nice bit of reasoning for the people doing the conquering.

[Aquamonkey]

That's always a nice bit of reasoning for the people doing the conquering.

So military forces should just completely ignore members of the populace who insert themselves into the armed conflict? "Wait, don't shoot that guy attacking us. He's not wearing a uniform. Just let him continue killing our guys."

The conquering party is going in to conquer, defeating any resistance. People have every right to take up arms to defend themselves, but they are waiving any expectation for exemption as civilians. They make themselves valid military targets and casualties of war.

If the conquering party then goes out of their way to murder non-combatants, that's a different matter entirely.

[Disreali]

The issue gets a lot more muddy when you consider that most people have no desire to be become soldiers, and wouldn't have taken up arms to defend themselves had the conquering party not engaged in...well...conquering. Of course a solider isn't going to ignore someone who threatens his life with a weapon. Big picture though? I'm giving the moral high ground to the guy who picked up a gun to defend his loved ones after an army bombed out his neighbourhood. Not the professional soldier who is part of the army engaged in the conquering.

[Dreknar20]

I'm giving the moral high ground.

rofl, since when did morals and war ever mix. The whole point of it is to kill and wreck peoples lives.

[Disreali]

rofl, since when did morals and war ever mix. The whole point of it is to kill and wreck peoples lives.

That's a rather...adolescent view of warfare. People go to war for no other reason then to defend their homes, friends, and loved ones all the time.

As to your main question about morals and war mixing?

https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl....xsp?redirect=0

I'll leave you to peruse on your own time.

[Dreknar20]

People go to war for no other reason then to defend their homes, friends, and loved ones all the time.

and how do they do that? Oh right by killing other peoples friends, loved ones, and homes. There is no 'moral' high ground in war.

[Disreali]

and how do they do that? Oh right by killing other peoples friends, loved ones, and homes. There is no 'moral' high ground in war.

So, according to you, the nation that starts the war is no more at fault then the nation that was invaded without provocation.

[Dreknar20]

So, according to you, the nation that starts the war is no more at fault then the nation that was invaded without provocation.

fault? Like I said, I don't go with the whole blame game.
Both nations are fighting for their goals and people. Both nations are killing and destroying the others.

[Disreali]

Then you're being, at best, obtuse. At worst? You're applying the mentality of a thirteen year old to the question of warfare.

[Dreknar20]

At worst? You're applying the mentality of a thirteen year old to the question of warfare.

no its called realpolitik and power politics instead of utopian, annoying ass idealism.
Better for me war be waged for gain than to just to maintain the status quo. Better to spend all that money and lives and get something out of it.

[Disreali]

You're using words, but not properly.

You understand that "realpolitik" as a philosophy has been used to curtail war just as much as it's been used to justify it, right?

[Wilian]

Conquering your enemies is not the same as killing innocents.

In the MU, Orgrim was never okay with killing innocents. He just kept his mouth shut because he couldn't do anything about it.

He could do plenty about it in Second War, being the de facto leader of the Horde. He didn't.

[sam86]

What are cities populated of if not full of innocents? I know orcs are dumb but this Orgrim dude takes the cake. The cities and outposts taken in Talador weren't even military ones, just villages full of innocent draenei.

The way they portray Orgrim he is either blind as a bat, or oblivious beyond belief what his troops are doing under him.

So when Alliance attack Orgrimmar why they didn't 'care' for civilians, or Undercity, or because it was horde it has no 'civilians' ?
Or maybe because there is no other option and you can still minimize the civilian casuals even when you attack a city?

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He could do plenty about it in Second War, being the de facto leader of the Horde. He didn't.

Pretty much orcs killed, raped and destroyed each others when there was no alien enemy to fight, and in that time humans were aliens to orcs (and other way around)
If it wasn't for Defias brotherhood and humans proved they suck as free slaves, doubt the alliance would try to keep orcs alive as new slaves

[Aquamonkey]

He could do plenty about it in Second War, being the de facto leader of the Horde. He didn't.

Waging war =/= killing innocents. Why do so many people not know this?

[Disreali]

They do but there are plenty of cannonical instances that show that Orgrim did more then wage war. Pretty sure he tortured civilians and drank their blood.
Or if you want to look at it another way...how many human survivors were left alive in Alliance lands he conquered? How many humans would have been left alive had he won the war? The answer's none. He didn't wage war on the Alliance to defeate their armies and extend his domain. He did it to kill off the local populations and take their lands. He wasn't just waging war. He was waging a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

[Aquamonkey]

They do but there are plenty of cannonical instances that show that Orgrim did more then wage war. Pretty sure he tortured civilians and drank their blood.
Or if you want to look at it another way...how many human survivors were left alive in Alliance lands he conquered? How many humans would have been left alive had he won the war? The answer's none. He didn't wage war on the Alliance to defeate their armies and extend his domain. He did it to kill off the local populations and take their lands. He wasn't just waging war. He was waging a campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Must be why there weren't any survivors of the lands he conquered... Or how he went and slaughtered the human kingdom that allied with him...

Even Terenas wanted Orgrim as an ally and kept him as an "honored prisoner" so they could make a treaty.

[sam86]

I think you have very wrong info, this is the horde not the alliance, alliance purged trolls from their lands to take over them, horde were more or less want to fight, if no human around, they will fight each others