Being Frost and Enjoying Frost

[jrockviggy]

Hey all, just wanted to point out a few things regarding the Frost vs Unholy debate.

I hope there are a few frost patrons besides myself out there who are managing to stay away from the unholy hype. Just like in MoP 2H is the slightly more difficult (in the sense that you have to make decisions versus prioritizing keys and slamming them down in that order) and offers slightly more dps than DW.

Level 100 talent selection

As 2H, Breath of Sindragosa has done more for me than Defile. Defile is literally not worth the rune it costs. Obliterate is too precious.

As DW, Defile is the better choice by a lot.

Breath is useless for single target and I would only incorporate Defile into my single target rotation IF:

- I was DW.
- I know the boss will be stationary.

Otherwise just save them for AoE.

What to expect entering raids

With proper raid cooldowns, 640 ilvl 2H Frost players should feel comfortable at 24k single target with low-movement, but more is possible. As DW except about 5% less performance of whatever you do as 2H. I recommend sticking with 2H just because managing one weapon is easier. If you're lucky enough to grab a pair of 1H weapons of a higher item level then by all means, play DW. However, my circumstance never falls that direction.

A couple more things

Just remember that are coming down the road as we gain more gear:

-2H frost will still be very competitive at 670 item level.
-Unholy is going to be the clear victor at 695 item level and perhaps beforehand on any high-movement fights.

Let's hope Blizzard realizes this and gives us a little love going into the next tier! But mostly, just have fun guys!

[Maxweii]

In a single target rotation, for 2H Frost, Defile actually is worth using.

[Schizoide]

Yep, lots of wrong stuff there. Defile is the best choice for every DK in most PvE situations. BoS is markedly better for burst single-target (which usually doesn't matter), and slightly better for burst AE (which does, but only slightly better).

[RuneDK]

Yep, lots of wrong stuff there. Defile is the best choice for every DK in most PvE situations. BoS is markedly better for burst single-target (which usually doesn't matter), and slightly better for burst AE (which does, but only slightly better).

On top of the fact that he said 2H is more complicated than DW...They both aren't complicated at all, 2H is the easier of the spec as you basically hit what's available...At least iirc, 2H still doesn't prioritize KM on OB so the whole slow down of the spec was completely pointless. Feel free to correct me on that if I am wrong.

[Schizoide]

No, you're right. It's a coin flip whether 2H or DW masterfrost is more complex, both priorities are completely trivial to perfectly execute baseline. If you go mastersimple with DW it is definitely easier though.

[Acelius]

How is DW holding up to 2H? I hate the downtime on 2H, is it any better as DW currently?

[Sleeze]

On top of the fact that he said 2H is more complicated than DW...They both aren't complicated at all, 2H is the easier of the spec as you basically hit what's available...At least iirc, 2H still doesn't prioritize KM on OB so the whole slow down of the spec was completely pointless. Feel free to correct me on that if I am wrong.

You have to prio obliterate with KM procs to do good DPS as 2H, even if waiting for CD (hence the bif downtime). DW is more about your Frost Strike. At least from everything I've witnessed and read. Gotta love those huge crits!

Frost is still easier to play than Unholy imo, whether it's DW or 2H.

[Schizoide]

You have to prio obliterate with KM procs to do good DPS as 2H

This is wrong.

[Sleeze]

This is wrong.

because..?

[RuneDK]

because..?

It's been mathematically proven that it's a DPS loss to sit on KM procs if you have FS available and wait for OB.

[Maxweii]

because..?

As Rune said above my post, it's just plain been proven to be a waste to wait on them. You net more dps not waiting on them compared to waiting, even with how hard OB hits for 2h

[Sleeze]

Thanks for explaining, a simple 'this is wrong' doesn't explain anything to people that don't follow mmo often.

In regards to what I said, it was Prioritise obliterate, which means using it before Frost Strike, not the fact that you wait regardless, perhaps I should of explained better also.

I read your post, RuneDK as saying whatever is up use what is available, but if I have both available or even OB usage 1 second off/blood tap use, i'm going to use obliterate as it gives a better benefit dps wise. If i'm looking at 3+ seconds on OB then FS is going to be used as you're likely missing out on another possible KM and tbh it's a more instinctual press.

Simcraft and guides all point to ob usage for KM procs and ofc in the heat of the moment FS is a solution over a long wait, but obliterate is still a priority > FS for 2H.

[Emophia]

Defile is worth it if you take it, but it feels bad imo, Breath just feels so good as 2h frost imo, my favorite 90 talent for frost im loving it in PVP, hope it stays viable forevermore.

[Dezminion]

I hope you are rly meaning that Defile, BoS or NP are your favorite lvl 100 talents instead of lvl 90, or my talent un-tree is somehow confused in-game

[Deleted]

I played frost in wotlk and cata and man I must say it changed from fast paced fun gameplay to a snorefest.

There are way to many times when you are waiting on runes or have no RP. I really hope they either reduce frost strike costs or incrase RP regeneration.

[potatoe]

It's been mathematically proven that it's a DPS loss to sit on KM procs if you have FS available and wait for OB.

I must've missed it.
Where has that calculation been done for 6.x?

Waiting is a gain, but a very small and insignificant one over the alterative, which is ordering your abilities to maximize killing machine procs on obliterate.

via

Sentrytotem.com: DPS Death Knight 6.0.3 – Turtles All The Way Down

[Sleeze]

Waiting is a gain, but a very small and insignificant one over the alterative, which is ordering your abilities to maximize killing machine procs on obliterate.

via

Sentrytotem.com: DPS Death Knight 6.0.3 – Turtles All The Way Down

Coincidently I spoke to Mendenbarr on twitter last night about it:

Me: Hi Mendenbarr, when dealing with 2h frost how important is it to hit KM procs with Ob, compared to fs?

M: Not hugely important, more important to not waste anything. Detailed priority at http://sentrytotem.com/news/classes/...l-the-way-down … !

That's basically what I do, so if i'm having to wait for the OB to become available i'm using KM with Frost Strike instead (normally if it's 2-3 seconds off and KM is already up), the rotation is there for perfect dps, where as real world dps is a little different.

[Maxweii]

That's likely how Frost will always end up, as we just really aren't meant to 'pool' resources to wait to use them. It's just not how we have been for the longest time.
Hence why BoS was changed to a longer CD then it initially had (which works better this way imo).

[jrockviggy]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll re-test Defile now that I am 645. The last time I tried using it was around 630.

Regarding KM procs, it may be a waste to hold them when you consider the fact that KM has no ICD. If they would allow KM to stack up to 2 times then it would be a clear dps increase to wait.

Part of me wants to just get rid of the proc so another one can proc.

[Schizoide]

That's likely how Frost will always end up, as we just really aren't meant to 'pool' resources to wait to use them. It's just not how we have been for the longest time.
Hence why BoS was changed to a longer CD then it initially had (which works better this way imo).

Err, we absolutely were meant to pool resources and wait on Killing Machine. That was the developers' target. They just completely missed it, that's all.

@jrock: Adding stacks to KM would be a QoL improvement but would not make waiting on the proc worthwhile. This was proven in MoP beta, and nothing has changed since (we weren't GCD-locked then either).

The proper way to fix Killing Machine is to do the following.

1) Make it proc when the player uses an ability, like monk Combo Breaker. That way the player never wastes the proc, because he has control. You never feel like you "failed a test". Would just be a whole heck of a lot more fun.

2) Set its damage to scale with crit chance, like Warlock Chaos Bolt. (And obviously change proc chance so this isn't a huge performance buff.)