[6.0 Guide] Gladiator - More Furious than Fury

[Archimtiros]

Not to nitpick but why bother using a dummy trinket and not just use none?

I have another simulation saved that compares every single trinket combination that I can dig up, but it's about the same as your findings. Worldbreakers/Horn is by far the best setup for Fury, followed by Worldbreaker/Cleave for AoE. Worldbreaker/Cleave is best for Arms in both ST and AoE, and Worldbreaker is pretty poop for Glad all around.

[Ssateneth]

Not to nitpick but why bother using a dummy trinket and not just use none?

Eh, to get a rough idea how much it would be like if a second comparable trinket was equipped. I don't know, its habit really. (It was 850 str + crit)

I've edited my post with the graphs to not use a dummy trinket with static stats on it.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

Still working out a Gladiator BIS list, but this is as far as I got today. Will check out more tomorrow.

77556 DPS

head=faceguard_of_iron_wrath,id=124334,bonus_id=567
neck=world_enders_gorget,id=124222,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5317
shoulders=pauldrons_of_iron_wrath,id=124346,bonus_id=567
back=void_lords_wizened_cloak,id=124147,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5310
chest=chestguard_of_ill_fate,id=124316,bonus_id=567
wrists=wristplate_of_the_wretched,id=124352,bonus_id=567
hands=gauntlets_of_iron_wrath,id=124329,bonus_id=567
waist=annihilans_waistplate,id=124349,bonus_id=567
legs=legplates_of_iron_wrath,id=124340,bonus_id=567
feet=treads_of_the_defiler,id=124322,bonus_id=567
finger1=mannoroths_calcified_eye,id=124204,enchant=gift_of_haste
finger2=sanctus_sigil_of_the_unbroken,id=124637,bonus_id=641,enchant_id=5324
trinket1=empty_drinking_horn,id=124238,bonus_id=567
trinket2=unending_hunger,id=124236,bonus_id=567
main_hand=fiendsbreath_warmace,id=124374,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5330
off_hand=smoldercore_bulwark,id=124356,bonus_id=567

[Archimtiros]

Eh, to get a rough idea how much it would be like if a second comparable trinket was equipped. I don't know, its habit really. (It was 850 str + crit)

I've edited my post with the graphs to not use a dummy trinket with static stats on it.

I mean, its fine, a flat amount of str and crit shouldn't skew the results since Gladiator doesn't have any kind of stat cap to deal with; just curious if there was a reason for it, as it doesn't seem to really do anything. I do a lot of things by habit without really thinking about it, no worries.

[Deleted]

They could just make the Gladiator Worldbreaker trinket the same as some other classes/speccs. A static amount of X% increased damage for X abilities (not just inside shield charge).
Sure it wouldn't be as fun as the fury trinket but for example sub rogue doesn't get anything fancy as well so I would be fine with that.

[Archimtiros]

They could just make the Gladiator Worldbreaker trinket the same as some other classes/speccs. A static amount of X% increased damage for X abilities (not just inside shield charge).
Sure it wouldn't be as fun as the fury trinket but for example sub rogue doesn't get anything fancy as well so I would be fine with that.

I actually like the idea that the Class trinkets do something more unique (Fury Haste, Arms CS reset) to change the rotation, instead of adding flat damage increase.

Sure it may end up meaning that some of the trinkets are not as strong as others, but they are at least more interesting.

[Ssateneth]

I actually like the idea that the Class trinkets do something more unique (Fury Haste, Arms CS reset) to change the rotation, instead of adding flat damage increase.

Sure it may end up meaning that some of the trinkets are not as strong as others, but they are at least more interesting.

Gimme reduced revenge cooldown. Definately changes the rotation. "Do I sync shield charge with revenge now?" Also, more rage, more HS. But might come at the expensive at lower enrage uptime.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

Further testing found Multistrike overtaking crit at the end of the new raid ( with that BIS list ). Which is pretty cool.

2400 points of crit will devalue it a bit, I guess. =P

[russ8825]

Well with the tier bonus pieces, it makes sense crit wont be valued as much because of the added enrage uptime. Did mastery surpass crit in your sims ?

[Ssateneth]

Well with the tier bonus pieces, it makes sense crit wont be valued as much because of the added enrage uptime. Did mastery surpass crit in your sims ?

Crit still coming ahead of the other stats. Getting enraged still requires critting (aside from shield charge).

[Kumqatninja]

is our str weapon one from an early boss or a later boss? Just curious if it will be a higher ilvl drop or not. This whole ilvl ramp is really dumb.

[Archimtiros]

Crit still coming ahead of the other stats. Getting enraged still requires critting (aside from shield charge).

It actually becomes even more important if anything due to the 2p. Even though 4p forces Enrage with Shield Charge, unlike other specs Gladiator does not limit its rotation outside of SC, and that huge damage boost to Enrage is very useful even outside of SC.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

What do you guys think about this idea:

Shield Charge increases Execute's Damage by 40% or some variable that's fair.
Either as a set bonus / or class trinket.

Pre-20% you have a pot saved, and 2 shield charges. You dump all of your rage into Execute as buffed as you can.
This removes the 2minute 2nd Pot that is useful on few of the fights, and helps us with the Utility the other DD Warriors bring ( big executes ).

Another nice factor is it simplifies wtf a glad is supposed to do at 20%. Because it's actually pretty hard ( unless you're simcraft ) to maintain Unyielding, Executes, Shield Charges, and keeping Shield Slam/Revenge on CD during sub 20% right now. For the VERY marginal gain of even using execute.

[Archimtiros]

What do you guys think about this idea:

Shield Charge increases Execute's Damage by 40% or some variable that's fair.
Either as a set bonus / or class trinket.

Pre-20% you have a pot saved, and 2 shield charges. You dump all of your rage into Execute as buffed as you can.
This removes the 2minute 2nd Pot that is useful on few of the fights, and helps us with the Utility the other DD Warriors bring ( big executes ).

Another nice factor is it simplifies wtf a glad is supposed to do at 20%. Because it's actually pretty hard ( unless you're simcraft ) to maintain Unyielding, Executes, Shield Charges, and keeping Shield Slam/Revenge on CD during sub 20% right now. For the VERY marginal gain of even using execute.

Problem remains: Execute doesn't fit into the rotation. Now your just using it for nuclear damage like Arms does but it provides no synergy whereas the rest of the toolkit does via things like Enrage, Ultimatum, Sword and Board, etc.

It also doesn't fix the issues you describe, it only removes them at 20%. Personally I don't think every warrior spec needs to be based around Execute, and indeed I honestly think none of them should to the degree that they are. Execute should simplify rotations, it shouldn't define them.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

Problem remains: Execute doesn't fit into the rotation. Now your just using it for nuclear damage like Arms does but it provides no synergy whereas the rest of the toolkit does via things like Enrage, Ultimatum, Sword and Board, etc.

It also doesn't fix the issues you describe, it only removes them at 20%. Personally I don't think every warrior spec needs to be based around Execute, and indeed I honestly think none of them should to the degree that they are. Execute should simplify rotations, it shouldn't define them.

Sub 20% Rotation would be:

Shield Slam > Devastate > Shield Charge + Execute to burn rage > Devastate as filler. That is not complicated. You'd still want ultimatum/s&b proc's but they do'nt change anything. And enrage happens during shield charge anyway ( with 2 pc ).

Current rotation is: Devastate if US about to fall off > Heroic Strike at 6 stacks ( free ) > Shield Slam+Shield Charge > Revenge > Execute > Devastate.

And I agree we wouldn't need it if Fury/Arms execute wasn't so good. But it is, so we do.

[Deleted]

And I agree we wouldn't need it if Fury/Arms execute wasn't so good. But it is, so we do.

Personally I don't think glad is lacking execute, there are several DPS without execute and still doing fine. OK it is weired, that THE execute class has an DMG Spec without execute, but this isn't the problem. Even when Gladiator DPS would be on even grounds with fury, i would pick fury as raidlead, simply because Gladiator doesn't have any burst at all. They don't have a 2 min or 3 min cd to end one Phase faster and get out of one mechanik faster.

This problem only increase with the new legendary ring, since Buff stacking really help out your DMG and a glad can't do it.

[Archimtiros]

Sub 20% Rotation would be:

Shield Slam > Devastate > Shield Charge + Execute to burn rage > Devastate as filler. That is not complicated. You'd still want ultimatum/s&b proc's but they do'nt change anything. And enrage happens during shield charge anyway ( with 2 pc ).

Current rotation is: Devastate if US about to fall off > Heroic Strike at 6 stacks ( free ) > Shield Slam+Shield Charge > Revenge > Execute > Devastate.

And I agree we wouldn't need it if Fury/Arms execute wasn't so good. But it is, so we do.

No offence, but it's this this kind of thinking that leads to class homogenization. Glad doesn't need heavy Executes simply because Arms has it, all the specs needs is to be balanced, end of story. Does that mean Arms may end up being better on an encounter that favors a burst end of fight phase? Sure, but what's wrong with that? By the same logic it would imply that Glad would be better on a fight that has DPS checks in the earlier stages of the fight, or a fight that has no Execute phase.

I understand the rotation you laid out, in fact I suggested that same rotation quite a long time ago during Beta, though instead of making Execute useful by giving it a ridiculous damage boost, I'd make it take the place of Dev + HS fully. Let Execute proc Enrage and S&B as Devastate does, and let it gain damage during Shield Charge the way Heroic Strike does (while retaining its cost).

This simplifies the rotation, and grants a small damage boost by stint of using Execute, but not an obscene one the way Arms does. The good thing is that it retains the spirit of the rotation. While your suggestion would place all the emphasis on Execute, this one would still focus on Shield Charge, utilizing Shield Slam and iot's resets, only you replacing two supplementary buttons (HS and Dev) with one stronger (Execute).

To reiterate:
Not every spec needs to have equal toolkits, and in fact they shouldn't. Their damage needs to be balanced but there should be pros/cons to each spec and they should take different approaches to gameplay, that is what helps make them unique. I'd much rather see Gladiator as a spec that has consistent damage from start to finish than have a 3rd Execute heavy spec.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

No offence, but it's this this kind of thinking that leads to class homogenization. Glad doesn't need heavy Executes simply because Arms has it, all the specs needs is to be balanced, end of story. Does that mean Arms may end up being better on an encounter that favors a burst end of fight phase? Sure, but what's wrong with that? By the same logic it would imply that Glad would be better on a fight that has DPS checks in the earlier stages of the fight, or a fight that has no Execute phase.

I understand the rotation you laid out, in fact I suggested that same rotation quite a long time ago during Beta, though instead of making Execute useful by giving it a ridiculous damage boost, I'd make it take the place of Dev + HS fully. Let Execute proc Enrage and S&B as Devastate does, and let it gain damage during Shield Charge the way Heroic Strike does (while retaining its cost).

This simplifies the rotation, and grants a small damage boost by stint of using Execute, but not an obscene one the way Arms does. The good thing is that it retains the spirit of the rotation. While your suggestion would place all the emphasis on Execute, this one would still focus on Shield Charge, utilizing Shield Slam and iot's resets, only you replacing two supplementary buttons (HS and Dev) with one stronger (Execute).

To reiterate:
Not every spec needs to have equal toolkits, and in fact they shouldn't. Their damage needs to be balanced but there should be pros/cons to each spec and they should take different approaches to gameplay, that is what helps make them unique. I'd much rather see Gladiator as a spec that has consistent damage from start to finish than have a 3rd Execute heavy spec.

I'm not sure why you'd even argue this. You know the ability to do something other than flat damage is always better when building around the fights. Being a straight line of solid dps is great, on which fight? none. I think the homogenization concern is valid, but doesn't apply to glad. Since we literally pot at the 2 minute mark against Gruul, if we happen to have a 2min trinket. Having Execute is a reason to bring a warrior, not having execute is another reason NOT to bring Gladiators.

In hindsight i'm just reiterating my point, again. blah.

[Archimtiros]

I'm not sure why you'd even argue this. You know the ability to do something other than flat damage is always better when building around the fights. Being a straight line of solid dps is great, on which fight? none. I think the homogenization concern is valid, but doesn't apply to glad. Since we literally pot at the 2 minute mark against Gruul, if we happen to have a 2min trinket. Having Execute is a reason to bring a warrior, not having execute is another reason NOT to bring Gladiators.

In hindsight i'm just reiterating my point, again. blah.

A solid line of damage is great on a fight with no execute phase, which isn't all that uncommon. It's also good to a lesser extent on fights that don't have Execute-Enrage mechanics. The only reason Execute is given weight is because that is the point at which some fights become hectic/high damage DPS races (like Iron Maidens), and while it is more common now, not all fights do. Even when they do, it has to be pretty extreme to really warrant bringing an Arms Warrior over Fury, just because of the higher Executes and any fight that has a hard DPS push before that phase would undoubtedly favor the other specs. How many Arms Warriors played Butcher? Not many, because while the Execute phase was an important burn, the tight enrage timer meant the DPS leading up to that phase was just as important.

The reason raids don't bring/players don't play Glad isn't because it doesn't have Execute, it's because it doesn't do as competitive damage, period. Arcane Mages don't have an Execute and yet they didn't get sat for Arms Warriors on Butcher, because their damage was consistent and higher.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

The reason raids don't bring/players don't play Glad isn't because it doesn't have Execute, it's because it doesn't do as competitive damage, period.

I didn't think I had to specify this bit. I was talking about glad in a world where our damage was on par. I thought that was obvious. Why even worry about the rotation at all if we're 30k dps behind the next spec.