Why Didn't Varian Make Any Demands?

[Csnyder]

watch it again, he did make demands
waste of a post and all of our time

[nonameelf]

Tong is, however, correct. Through years of bloodshed and aggression the Horde and the Alliance has managed to develop powerful warmachines and equally powerful Heros.

No, he's not correct.

Constant, never ending warfare is very bad. It makes everyone weaker. There needs to be time between wars for new generations to be born.

Besides, there are a shit ton of other things to fight. Fighting between the factions just makes everyone weaker. The most recent big technological breakthroughs(the airships) came about to combat the Scourge, not the other faction.

[Ciddy]

There are living Lordaeronians currently living as refugees in Stormwind and who have remained loyal to the Alliance. Do they not get a say in who owns their land?

I don't think it's been specifically mentioned in lore, but I'd wager that the Forsaken in Lordaeron far outnumber the refugees who are living in Stormwind.

OT: I'd say for gameplay reasons. Also: I think the Horde was at a fairly weak state at that point, and the Alliance probably could've done some serious damage. However, I think Varian knew that he'd take some heavy losses himself if he tried anything, and he didn't want to do that.

[Disreali]

The alliance attitude of charging into other lands and claiming that land for there own, but doing it in such a way they whitewash themselves when doing it, is also a long running theme of the alliance.

You're confusing the Alliance with the Horde during the First and Second Wars.

[Cerus]

I agree with you both of your examples. I think its just gameplay reasons. Ashenvale - there is a battleground (warsong gulch) which should be removed. Also battle for Gilneas should be removed, and they should relocate the undead to somewhere else. I don't think they will ever do that.

In this game The Burning Legion is the ultimate evil, so defeating them would be the end of the game.

Fixed that last part for ya since you haven't a clue.

Because the Horde get off consequence-free for everything they do. They weren't "the bad guys" it was the blood curse! They didn't try to fuse with an Old God, it was Garrosh! They'll get away with starting shit on Draenor in Ashran, too.

Thanks for the Lich King and the burning legion. Oh and thanks for getting the orcs home world destroyed. Funny how the actions of alliance members aren't the fault of the alliance but one horde gone nuts is the entire hordes fault.

This is why I can't stand the alliance. Alliance have one thing in common with real life - Nazis.


OP: Pound for pound the horde would crush the alliance. No alliance member could go toe to toe with a Tauren let alone the entire faction. Empty threat.

[Disreali]

AHAHAHAHA! Seriously? Heh.

The Burning Legion existed long before the Alliance was even a thing. The Lich King was a human who went insane and abandoned the Alliance to become King Zombie. The orcish homeworld was blown up by the actions of an orc, Ner'zhul. Not the Alliance.

[Budong]

Fixed that last part for ya since you haven't a clue.



Thanks for the Lich King and the burning legion. Oh and thanks for getting the orcs home world destroyed. Funny how the actions of alliance members aren't the fault of the alliance but one horde gone nuts is the entire hordes fault.

This is why I can't stand the alliance. Alliance have one thing in common with real life - Nazis.


OP: Pound for pound the horde would crush the alliance. No alliance member could go toe to toe with a Tauren let alone the entire faction. Empty threat.

True all of this. Blizz gives them their 'moment' and they want to take everything. Now who exactly is the bad guy in this scenario? Thank god Varian isn't a completely air headed moron like Garrosh, because that's what a lot of you Alliance players are sounding like.

[Aquamonkey]

Thanks for the Lich King and the burning legion. Oh and thanks for getting the orcs home world destroyed. Funny how the actions of alliance members aren't the fault of the alliance but one horde gone nuts is the entire hordes fault.

The things Arthas did as LK had nothing to do with the Alliance.

I'm assuming your remark about the Burning Legion is referring to the elves 10K years before the Alliance.

Draenor was destroyed through the selfish actions of Ner'zhul opening up a bunch of portals.

[Darththeo]

No, he's not correct.

Constant, never ending warfare is very bad. It makes everyone weaker. There needs to be time between wars for new generations to be born.

Besides, there are a shit ton of other things to fight. Fighting between the factions just makes everyone weaker. The most recent big technological breakthroughs(the airships) came about to combat the Scourge, not the other faction.

Have you studied our own history? Fighting between Tribes ie Factions occur all the time. Every European War for example has been for the most part tribal and in some cases even familial. Also, the Scourge is a faction in and of itself, therefor your example even destroys your argument. It is estimated that in the last 3400 years that less than 300 could be classified as times of peace (how much closer do you need to "never" ending war do you really need) ... meaning the vast majority of humans have grown up around conflict. Sorry, Tong is right ... you are wrong.

Also, Tong isn't talking about just war either. Tong is talking about balance.

[Disreali]

Yeah, I take Tong's remarks to mean that if the Alliance and Horde would stop fighting they'd be stronger then any one faction ever could be.

[Deleted]

The things Arthas did as LK had nothing to do with the Alliance.

I'm assuming your remark about the Burning Legion is referring to the elves 10K years before the Alliance.

Draenor was destroyed through the selfish actions of Ner'zhul opening up a bunch of portals.

It's also worth noting that the elves responsible for the sundering are now naga, I don't know of any naga that are a part of the alliance.

[nonameelf]

Have you studied our own history? Fighting between Tribes ie Factions occur all the time. Every European War for example has been for the most part tribal and in some cases even familial. Also, the Scourge is a faction in and of itself, therefor your example even destroys your argument. It is estimated that in the last 3400 years that less than 300 could be classified as times of peace (how much closer do you need to "never" ending war do you really need) ... meaning the vast majority of humans have grown up around conflict. Sorry, Tong is right ... you are wrong.

Also, Tong isn't talking about just war either. Tong is talking about balance.

You're talking about any war ever on the face of the earth, not the same war fought between the same people over and over again.

They aren't even remotely comparable.

The nation of Theramore was straight up wiped off the map. Theramore is certainly stronger because of the faction war right? How about Gilneas? Darnassus? Maybe Stromgarde? Yeah, those places are all totally stronger because of the faction war, totally.

[Asonarth]

Fixed that last part for ya since you haven't a clue.



Thanks for the Lich King and the burning legion. Oh and thanks for getting the orcs home world destroyed. Funny how the actions of alliance members aren't the fault of the alliance but one horde gone nuts is the entire hordes fault.

This is why I can't stand the alliance. Alliance have one thing in common with real life - Nazis.


OP: Pound for pound the horde would crush the alliance. No alliance member could go toe to toe with a Tauren let alone the entire faction. Empty threat.

^ 100% agree

What gets me is that all these alliance players are complaining about the horde getting "let off the hook " so to speak.... above me numerous people have pointed out things that alliance / former alliance chracters have done which has ended very badly, and the response we get from the alliance is "they arent alliance anymore" ... is that not the same as us saying Garrosh / the kor kron arent horde anymore?
wh
how is it fair for us to be told " we get let off the hook all the time" when you yourselves admit that you arent at fault for stuff former alliance characters do....

#doubestandards

[Aquamonkey]

Skirmishes and "cold war" make both stronger. Bludgeoning each other continuously to mutual destruction does not.

I look at it like weight-lifting. If you're in the gym 24/7, you're going to do more harm than good. You need to give your body time to rebuild the muscle fibers so they can get stronger.

This is even in Tong's example. The mantid and pandaren weren't in a constant state of total war. The mantid only attacked every 100 years. Giving both sides a reprieve to recoup and improve. Tong's point is valid, it just doesn't apply to the Horde and Alliance.

[Gumboy]

There are living Lordaeronians currently living as refugees in Stormwind and who have remained loyal to the Alliance. Do they not get a say in who owns their land?

They lost the land. It was taken from them by force. They lost the battle. It is not their land anymore, in any way, shape, or form.

[Aquamonkey]

There are living Lordaeronians currently living as refugees in Stormwind and who have remained loyal to the Alliance. Do they not get a say in who owns their land?

Did they really own that land though? The majority of the population was peasants. All of Southshore, Tarren Mill, Brill, and Caer Darrow belonged to the Barov family. And there's examples of other areas being estates owned by aristocrats/nobles.

Joe peasant refugee wouldn't have any claim to the land. And neither does the Forsaken (legally), except by revolution and taking it from Arthas. However, with the majority of Lordaeron's population turned into Scourge and the Forsaken comprising half of that, probability leans towards the land-owners being Forsaken (or dead/still Scourge) than a refugee.

[Cerus]

The things Arthas did as LK had nothing to do with the Alliance.

I'm assuming your remark about the Burning Legion is referring to the elves 10K years before the Alliance.

Draenor was destroyed through the selfish actions of Ner'zhul opening up a bunch of portals.

And here we go again. Garrosh and the horde are one in the same but the lich king and the alliance aren't. Hypocrite much?

The BL never would have found the orcs to enslave had it not been for alliance races drawing their attention. You CANNOT have it both ways. Either the entire faction is responsible on BOTH sides equally or they're not. The alliance did nothing to stop Arthas so why isn't the entire alliance to blame if the entire horde is to blame for Garrosh? FYI prince arthas murdered innocents civilians long before he became the lich king. He WAS a member of the alliance.

Idiotic alliance double standard. All the worlds problems can be traced back to alliances races. By your standards it doesn't matter whether they existed yet or not. You are all responsible just as the entire Horde is responsible for Garrosh and the enslaved orcs yes?

[Mentaldemise]

Gameplay, Gameplay, Gameplay and Horde bias from metzen.

If you look closely at the storyline and how smart Varian,Jaina and Tyrande/Malf are at war strats the alliance could of completely subdued everyone in the horde 3 expansions ago, the only 2 that would still be "Running around" would be orcs and trolls.

[Deleted]

You're talking about any war ever on the face of the earth, not the same war fought between the same people over and over again.

They aren't even remotely comparable.

The nation of Theramore was straight up wiped off the map. Theramore is certainly stronger because of the faction war right? How about Gilneas? Darnassus? Maybe Stromgarde? Yeah, those places are all totally stronger because of the faction war, totally.

You can put Orgrimmar and the Darkspear tribe in that list as well. Losing so many soldiers should make them weaker, assuming that Blizzard doesn't give them numbers out of nowhere.

[Cerus]

It's also worth noting that the elves responsible for the sundering are now naga, I don't know of any naga that are a part of the alliance.

And the "horde" responsible for MoP were Garrosh's "true horde" yet the Horde is to blame.