Hoping for a warrior buff in a few hours...

[tru]

[QUOTE=Deathcries;30925420]You must not remember wrath where WW was apart of the fury rotation. It was our hardest hitting ability by far. I don't mind WW being apart of the rotation, I just think it should be effected by mastery. Also I feel Slam should get a buff.

I also see people who scream about how arms sucks, they usually suck at it because they can't keep up rend times or manage their rage properly. When you have two to three targets out there, Arms has a lot of utility and ability and making decisions on what to use can either increase or decrease your DPS.

Regardless Arms imo is more complicated and at least has a tactical aspect, then fury. Fury right now is plain out garbage and a mindless rotation. Not saying Arms is in any place in good shape. It's just more well rounded and takes more skill to be better at than fury.

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As brain dead as the spec is I really don't see how anyone can be bad as arms. The only way i could see it happen is if someone just tried to play to fast and WW dump to often. Fury at least requires to be enraged to be optimal.. they took enrage away from arms

[Archimtiros]

Paid for by the blizzard dev team?
Really?
The fact is we don't have enough SINGLE TARGET ABILITIES and therefore we are FORCED to use a AOE ABILITY in our SINGLE TARGET ROTATION. This isnt old school fury and if you cannot see why its bad then I feel sorry you never got to experience a warrior in another time.

Im not talking about replace ww with cleave to only fill in the ST rotation. Our aoe is to strong as it is. A rage dump AoE spell with limited targets would help aoe numbers some without an outright talent nerf. because a talent nerf is the only other option for our aoe damage.

So you would just "bump a modifier" and call it a day? What 75% more ap to Mortal Strike and be done? because thats good design... They did that shit with dks esp unholy with the "unholy might" buff "an easy way to tweak" or so they called it and it was garbage. 35% str today nerf to 5% str tomorrow its stupid and never works.

Warriors need an overhaul like warlocks got plain and simple. Even frost mages got reworked DURING MoP and look how their numbers have been consistent ever since.

Did you even read what I said?

I said ST balance could be accomplished by bumping modifiers, it really is that easy. Yes, it generally takes a few passes to get right but so does all balance.

Typing in caps doesn't make your point any more clear or correct, nor does trying to call out people on their experience or lack thereof, especially when you don't know it. There are very few players left in this game that can claim a playing history as extensive as mine, and a scant handful that could claim to understand or play the class as well as I do. That has dick all to do with the argument however, which is why I don't throw it in the face of everyone I argue with, or use it to try to irrationally belittle their argument.

An AoE ability with limited targeting doesn't help anyone and doesn't fit the design of the game. Could you imagine trying to use Shockwave as our AoE? Because that's what your proposing. There is nothing wrong with Whirlwind per sey, it hits like a limp dick but thats because of how its tied to our ST. Not because it would increase it dramatically, but because they want Arms to feel big and bursty with MS, and adding damage to WW would take some of that away.

Its a thematic problem all around. The theme is crap, the downtime is boring and while fun, talents like TfB have wildly imbalanced practical applications.

Likewise, calling to add Deep Wounds back... why? It serves no purpose, you could just as well roll that damage into Rend and call it a day, or if you want it to be pure ST damage, roll it into the (laughable) perk Enhanced Rend.

Lastly... Warrior got a 'Warlock style' overhaul. It just sucks, hard. Instead of getting elegantly designed specs that flow, with abilities that build off of one another, we got a bunch of 1 off, fire and forget style abilities that don't interact worth a damn. I never said its good, or that I like it, but throwing worthless abilities into the mix doesn't fix it. Arms is easy to fix, while maintaining the style they put together, it would just require more changes than are practical for a hotfix.

[Wulfey]

What would you think about "pruning" rends into Deepwounds? I am don't like the Rend button. If I just had "Deep Wounds" on targets I MS or Thunderclap that would be more fun than tab-dotting stuff. I hate the idea of being a tab-dotter like a warlock.

[Archimtiros]

What would you think about "pruning" rends into Deepwounds? I am don't like the Rend button. If I just had "Deep Wounds" on targets I MS or Thunderclap that would be more fun than tab-dotting stuff. I hate the idea of being a tab-dotter like a warlock.

Community is split right down the middle on that one. There are people who love Rend because they think its flavorful and fun and cool to force a bleed on someone. Other people think its silly to have a button for something we did naturally before.

Personally I don't mind Rend as long as it serves a function past simple "dot damage". I don't think there is another dot in the game with that lack of interaction. SPriests, Warlocks, even Shaman's dots all serve supplementary purposes by proccing X, Y, Z or interacting with another spell. Rend by itself doesn't do jack and that makes it a lackluster and uninteresting button.

It could be as simple as "Rend ticks reduce the CD of MS by 1s" or "reduce the rage cost of Whirlwind by 10" or proccing an extra attack ala Overpower. Personally I don't care what it does but it needs something or its boring. This is most easily seen with mobs that don't live long. I didn't touch Rend once while leveling because its a complete waste of a GCD, especially since most of its damage is on the ass end.

[mysticx]

What would you think about "pruning" rends into Deepwounds? I am don't like the Rend button. If I just had "Deep Wounds" on targets I MS or Thunderclap that would be more fun than tab-dotting stuff. I hate the idea of being a tab-dotter like a warlock.

That would make TfB too powerful and require a nerf, though i still favour some other effect added to Rend along the old "Rend procs Overpower"-vein, but that would require the return of Overpower and push this into overhaul-territory and we won't see that until 6.1 at the very VERY least...

[Fatalfuror]

The whole L45 Talent Tier was a huge mistake. I've been saying it since it came in. They took away complexity from our base rotations, threw much of that into the tier, and then added shit in that inevitably caused nerfs to our now gutted baseline rotations (for instance, having to nerf BT to make room for UqT). This also removed a tier that I thought was one of the better-designed ones: the Utility Tier. Bringing back the Utility Tier, and baking in the L45 talents that actually work/don't cause more problems than they solve (UqT should be deleted and forgotten), would be a huge step in the right direction.

There are soooo many things wrong with Warriors right now. Some of it can be fixed by reverting absolute stupidity, others require much deeper tweaking.

But I don't see Blizzard doing anything substantial for a long time. The only hope I have for Fury is that they see how bad the spec is with such low crit levels and they do what I suggested a long fucking time ago - get rid of the crit dependency entirely.

[Gandrake]

They didn't even use Beta to Test anything. That's just how WoW is. Giving us more Pokemon minigames is more important than delivering a functional game to us.

Realistically, I wouldn't expect any changes for a couple of months so they can see how many fucks anyone gives about playing Arms or Fury. Maybe then, they will start reading feedback and accepting that they fucked up.

[Arteous]

I doubt that. I think - if ever - they will buff us after the first week (or later). Blizz probably want to have a look on live perfomances before they do any further class balancing.

fixing fury dps will entail an entire re-write of the spec or re-itemizing loot. there are like maybe 5 pieces that scream fury .. rest is mostly prot.

i'm not one of those people who scream blizz just wants warriors to tank. but goddamn bilzzard failed hard at itemizing the new raid with fury gear. i guess i'm riding the bench this tier because i'm not going to tank (blizzard zapped any joy i had in tanking back in BC and has made it more of a laborous chore than fun) and if i want to help my raid by dpsing i have to go glad wich means i have to take tank gear away from tanks to dps with. yea that's the most retarded idea blizzard has come up with to this date.

I guess i should go arms but even then we miss enrage timers by a few % and i'll get benched for hunter # 16145 or mage # 13414 ect ect.

i'm just hoping next tier of gear after this one will have good fury gear and some kind of 5 man so i won't be that guy they have to drag though the raid till he gets his gear.

[nyc81991]

The problem fundamentally with arms is that they put a multi target ability into the single target rotation.

This caused tuning issues, and when the inevitable 30% nerf to whirlwind and ravager came, the single target DPS of arms fell into trash tier.

This is why AoE abilities in single target rotations are class tuning issues. Arms needs a single target ability with a higher DPS priority than whirlwind. And no, talents do not count, because they will not be competitive with sudden death or taste for blood.

I think Arms (and possibly Fury) should get back either Overpower or Heroic Strike honestly.

[Arteous]

arms getting overpower back would make rogues, shaman and hunters cry till the cows come home. it will never happen.

i'd love to see an exlanation from blizz about why the fuck should a dps stance (gladiator) require tank itemized gear to dps with AND be the best dps spec over fury/arms.

so they want us to fight tanks for tank gear to dps with? How in the hell did blizzard think this was a good idea? I thought gladiator stance was supposed to be a stopgap method of tank warriors being able to farm/dps when short handed. Instead blizzard has made it the #1 warrior dps spec by a longshot.

besides tanks can always spec fury or arms with dual specialization that was given to use to solve the problem they think exists still. /sigh. ok i'm done ranting.

[Lendizzle]

You guys are aware that for the last like past year warriors were so OP it was stupid, maybe they don't want you to be top DPS on a new tier yet again? Maybe its not a balancing issue maybe its just a now you're the middle of the pack issue??? My mains a Frost DK and my Alt is a Fury warrior and I agree compared to how they "were" they feel weak but trust me you're still far better off than some classes and the fact that there are multiple fights with adds or more than 1 boss(Tectus) I still think we'll do very well with the several powerful 1 min tier CD AoE's. Give it a few weeks and some decent gear and then worry about class balancing in an actual raid scenario.

[Archimtiros]

You guys are aware that for the last like past year warriors were so OP it was stupid, maybe they don't want you to be top DPS on a new tier yet again? Maybe its not a balancing issue maybe its just a now you're the middle of the pack issue??? My mains a Frost DK and my Alt is a Fury warrior and I agree compared to how they "were" they feel weak but trust me you're still far better off than some classes and the fact that there are multiple fights with adds or more than 1 boss(Tectus) I still think we'll do very well with the several powerful 1 min tier CD AoE's. Give it a few weeks and some decent gear and then worry about class balancing in an actual raid scenario.

You mean one tier? Also nobody here has really been discussing performance, we've been talking about rotational problems.

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fixing fury dps will entail an entire re-write of the spec or re-itemizing loot. there are like maybe 5 pieces that scream fury .. rest is mostly prot.

i'm not one of those people who scream blizz just wants warriors to tank. but goddamn bilzzard failed hard at itemizing the new raid with fury gear. i guess i'm riding the bench this tier because i'm not going to tank (blizzard zapped any joy i had in tanking back in BC and has made it more of a laborous chore than fun) and if i want to help my raid by dpsing i have to go glad wich means i have to take tank gear away from tanks to dps with. yea that's the most retarded idea blizzard has come up with to this date.

They don't itemize loot around the way classes are designed, or rather they do by slot not stats. Trying to would be a complete fool's errand and ridiculous amount of work. If they did you wouldn't see any pieces with Versatility on them either!

[Deleted]

we've been talking about rotational problems.

Or, to put it differently, the fun factor being chopped off the class we play.

Thing is I'd rather not hope in a miracle I know won't come.

[Archimtiros]

The whole L45 Talent Tier was a huge mistake. I've been saying it since it came in. They took away complexity from our base rotations, threw much of that into the tier, and then added shit in that inevitably caused nerfs to our now gutted baseline rotations (for instance, having to nerf BT to make room for UqT). This also removed a tier that I thought was one of the better-designed ones: the Utility Tier. Bringing back the Utility Tier, and baking in the L45 talents that actually work/don't cause more problems than they solve (UqT should be deleted and forgotten), would be a huge step in the right direction.

There are soooo many things wrong with Warriors right now. Some of it can be fixed by reverting absolute stupidity, others require much deeper tweaking.

But I don't see Blizzard doing anything substantial for a long time. The only hope I have for Fury is that they see how bad the spec is with such low crit levels and they do what I suggested a long fucking time ago - get rid of the crit dependency entirely.

I've agreed many times. I said from the get go that talents should enhance a class and not enable it.

As for the utility tier... I can't really agree. All we really lost was the AoE interrupt which we'd already had significantly nerfed (merged CD with Pummel). PHowl is now baseline, and Staggering Shout was useless on a good day.

Talking Fury, I know you hate RNG and crit dependency and will rage about it until the day you quit. Its troubling for sure, and I'd like it to be static, but I don't see that ever happening. Personally I'd be fine with the proc as long as it doesn't keep you from having anything else to do. The issue now is the worst of both worlds; we don't crit, we can't do shit.

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Talking Arms, TfB is wildly imbalanced for AoE... and honestly that is ok, or would be if there was a similar ST talent. I think it'd be real easy to simply make a ST version that has similar results and leave Sudden Death as a middle ground. The simple fact that it's ok for Arms, who's stated intent is to be "slow" and open, can become GCD locked on AoE, means there is no reason it shouldn't be able to do the same for ST.

Again, it wouldn't be my first choice if I could completely overhaul the spec, but it would at least put things on a more even footing.

[Lendizzle]

Its the last half of every x-pac for the past 5 years warriors are just so OP its expected at this point so yes the 15 months SoO was out which was more than the rest of the time MoP was out...

And have you played the other classes... chopped up go play a Blood DK, or a Shaman of any spec lol. Blizz doesn't care about rotational fun factor. It's hit 1,2,3 use cd's when there up, hit 1,2,3... its a little late for rotational problems. especially considering that all of SoO Warriors top attack was either Melee or Bladestorm and no one complained who was playing one.

Welcome to the Wow the rest of us play guys. Just be patient get some % level's up and see how the spec feels.

[Zanderki]

Talking Fury, I know you hate RNG and crit dependency and will rage about it until the day you quit. Its troubling for sure, and I'd like it to be static, but I don't see that ever happening. Personally I'd be fine with the proc as long as it doesn't keep you from having anything else to do. The issue now is the worst of both worlds; we don't crit, we can't do shit.

I find it annoying and amusing at times now and start to count out loud the number of BT I get without criting for enrage and RB. I've hit 7 many times and about want to punch the screen but lucky 8 always prevents it. I may need to use that number in a pick 3 and go for trip 8's.

[Gandrake]

You guys are aware that for the last like the past year warriors were so OP it was stupid, maybe they don't want you to be top DPS on a new tier yet again?

i don't care what game it is, your game is shit if you have warriors in it and for any reason at all they suck

especially in this game with as many classes as there are that are actually true hybrids. warriors are hybrids in the sense that they can tank or dps, but it is also one of the only 2 roles in the game that pretty strictly do melee damage across all roles and cannot heal. so many classes use magic. you can't even rightfully call a Death Knight or a Retribution Paladin a real melee class. Yeah, they have core abilities that require them to be in melee range to use, but they also have a lot of ranged damage and utility.

if a class is fully dedicated to the role of melee DPS, it should be higher than any other class on a patchwerk simulation playing that role because it will suffer the most from downtime and in the case of warriors they have little or nothing else to give to their group.

So when you complain about a Warrior being top dps, I want you to remember you have better raid cooldowns, better utility, and are less punished for your downtime because you don't play a class that is fully devoted to the role of melee DPS.

You mean one tier?

n im like what? where?

i think we were like, really good in SoO and ToT? but top dps? lol someone in your raid wasn't pulling their weight or your warrior just had all the luck in the world and outgeared your other dps for an entire tier. I pulled good numbers during soo but was always next to a hunter and a warlock whether i beat them or not, and even if i did the difference was like 20k

i didn't even get a mythic evil eye

[Lendizzle]

i don't care what game it is, your game is shit if you have warriors in it and for any reason at all they suck

especially in this game with as many classes as there are that are actually true hybrids. warriors are hybrids in the sense that they can tank or dps, but it is also one of the only 2 roles in the game that pretty strictly do melee damage across all roles and cannot heal. so many classes use magic. you can't even rightfully call a Death Knight or a Retribution Paladin a real melee class. Yeah, they have core abilities that require them to be in melee range to use, but they also have a lot of ranged damage and utility.

if a class is fully dedicated to the role of melee DPS, it should be higher than any other class on a patchwerk simulation playing that role because it will suffer the most from downtime and in the case of warriors they have little or nothing else to give to their group.

So when you complain about a Warrior being top dps, I want you to remember you have better raid cooldowns, better utility, and are less punished for your downtime because you don't play a class that is fully devoted to the role of melee DPS.



n im like what? where?

i think we were like, really good in SoO and ToT? but top dps? lol someone in your raid wasn't pulling their weight or your warrior just had all the luck in the world and outgeared your other dps for an entire tier. I pulled good numbers during soo but was always next to a hunter and a warlock whether i beat them or not, and even if i did the difference was like 20k

i didn't even get a mythic evil eye

Is that a serious statement... Lets see Rallying Cry, Vig, Mocking banner(with a glyph now) a mass interrupt, Heroic Leap, Heroic Throw or w/e its called, Charge(2 with no CD), enraged regeneration, Die by the sword, and 3 tiers with a massive AoE(and another stun/ineterupt)...

A DK has what a broken AMS now, Ice Bound Fort, AMZ(lol), Death pact(2 min CD and an absorb)and a howling blast from range once, Or I can Death coil and do no damage... oh that's right we have no raid cd's because no one specs AMZ.

And a pally I have no comment you win there.

Rogues well... raid utility wise id still take a warrior over a rogue unless there's a specific mechanic for them.

And in full BiS gear warriors were out DPS'ing people on 90% of fights

Like I said you're still better off then the other "not real" melee classes

And DPS wise other than being beat on Thok by a hunter or Lock, and maybe Iron Jugg depending on the strat if you weren't top DPS there's an issue. But yes if you want to put it that way ToT and SoO, so 80% of an xpac.

[Redfingers]

This isn't SoO. This is WoD.

And WoD sim data shows both arms and fury in trash tier DPS.

[Tyze]

This isn't SoO. This is WoD.

And WoD sim data shows both arms and fury in trash tier DPS.

Because Warrior's are heavy gear dependent. Come on, people should know this.