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  1. #1

    Spoony's Adventures in Simulationcraft

    Here’s comprehensive results on my explorations for dps dks in Simulationcraft. Note that SimC is still in the workings and bugs may exist and what not. Small tl;dr section below, but mostly going in depth on things.

    I will be updating this thread constantly with new finds/re-running of sims. If there’s anything you would like simmed/modeled please give a detailed explanation of what you’re looking for. If I’ve already done it I will most likely ignore it. Also if there’s any errors please let me know. Thanks!

    I strongly suggest simming yourself for more info on specific analysis of your toon

    Table of Contents:

    Abbreviations
    TL;DR
    Stat Priority/Weight analysis
    Multi-target sustained analysis
    Analysis on burst for 5 targets
    Race analysis for three specs
    Gear analysis
    2h Frost BiS for each difficulty
    Unholy BiS for each difficulty
    DW BiS for each difficulty
    Updated Trinket list for each spec
    Extra info
    You can find all my profiles
    To Do List



    READ BELOW BEFORE GOING ON. I WILL NOT BE REPLYING TO THINGS ANSWERED HERE.
    • There are duplicates in the profiles
    • My APL's are the same as SimC's, I've updated the SimC ones to reflect a comprehensive list.
    • There are warnings above each of the profiles about ‘use_item’, but that was implemented to ensure that trinkets would be used.
    • One of the 2h frost profiles is labeled with RI and it isn’t using RI, this profile should not be in the list and I’m unsure as to why it pops up after I’ve checked all my profiles. So ignore this profile.
    • The race profile labeled as BiS is of the race Orc.
    • WF/Gem slots change things drastically so make sure you sim that on your own once you get those.
    • I initially started out simming what I thought was/would be BiS for the spec and then shifted the profile a little until it was apparent what would be BiS.
    • There are warnings above each of the profiles about ‘use_item’, but that was implemented to ensure that trinkets would be used.
    • The nomenclature of the “bis” profile was not changed from where I was doing some other testing so it should be right for unholy, but as you’ll from 2h frost is was not the best, but point gets across anyways.
    • The nomenclature for the other profiles is the piece that was swapped out from the original “BiS” profile.
    • Assumed legendary ring would be BiS automatically.
    • If you see any errors please let me know and I'll correct them.


    Abbreviations:
    • uh_fb = Unholy Festerblight Priority
    • uh_bb = Unholy Blood Boil spam playstyle
    • dw_ms = Mastersimple DW playstyle
    • FC = Rune of the Fallen Crusader
    • RI = Rune of Razorice
    • PL = Plague Leech
    • PB = Plaguebearer
    • UB = Unholy Blight
    • RC = Runic Corruption
    • RE = Runic Empowerment
    • BT = Blood Tap
    • NP = Necrotic Plague
    • BoS = Breath of Sindragosa
    • None = No talent selected


    tl;dr:
    Unholy is top with all rune regen talents being relatively close no matter the situation. Pick up PL. For tier 7 pick up Defile for any sustained situation (ST and AoE), and BoS for any burst situation (ST and AoE). Stat weights: Str > Mult > Mastery > Crit > Vers > Haste.



    Now for more in-depth stuff!!!

    Here’s the top 40 profiles for Mythic ST sustained (450 secs intervals):

    Spoiler: 


    The top combinations for each of the specs are as follows:

    Unholy @ ~42141: PL/BT/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: BT (42141) > RC (41621) > RE (41367).
    Stat weights are: Str (7.13) > Mult (4.43) > Mastery (4.24) > Crit (3.34) > Vers (3.05) > Haste (2.52).

    DW frost @ ~38224: FC/RI/PL/BT/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: BT (38224) > RC (38100) > RE (37856).
    Stat weights are: Str (5.98) > Mastery (3.27) > Mult (2.93) > Vers (2.79) > Haste (2.33) > Crit (2.24).

    2H frost @ ~38075: FC/PL/RC/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: RC (38075) > BT (37847) > RE (37768).
    Stat weights are: Str (5.78) > Mult (2.90) > Vers (2.76) > Haste (2.63) > Crit (2.37) ~= Mastery (2.30).


    Analysis: PL seems to be the clear winner overall as well as defile for ST. It’s funny to see how taking PL and no tier 7 talent is better than taking either of the other two and any tier 7 talent. Interesting to see how a blood boil based rotation is still so high after they’ve said multiple times that they do not want that to be a competitive playstyle. It’s also interesting to see a rise in a festerblight playstyle emerging with recent buffs. I imagine that an NP buff, which they’ve mentioned on doing, will push this to even being a more competitive playstyle. Mastersimple seems to be behind by only ~914 (~38224 - ~37310).

    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cq7lq3xol1...3_14.html?dl=0


    Here’s the top 40 profiles for Mythic ST burst (30 secs intervals):

    Spoiler: 


    The top combinations for each of the specs are as follows:

    Unholy @ ~79394: PB/BT/BoS.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: BT (79394) > RC (78273) > RE (78205).
    Stat weights are: Str (12.15) > Mastery (8.15) ~= Mult (7.99) > Crit (6.50) ~= Vers (5.87) > Haste (3.61).

    DW frost @ ~61644: FC/RI/PB/BT/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are kind of close: BT (61644) > RC (60966) > RE (60629).
    Stat weights are: Str (8.93) > Mult (5.04) ~= Vers (4.73) ~= Mastery (4.73) > Crit (3.81) > Haste (1.89).

    2H frost @ ~65403: FC/PL/RE/BoS.
    2 of the rune regen talents are close (not BT): RE (65403) > RC (65362) > BT (63533).
    Stat weights are: Str (8.98) > Mult (5.29) ~= Vers (5.02) > Crit (4.42) ~= Haste (4.28) > Mastery (3.55).

    Analysis: It’s pretty interesting to see that unholy becomes the burst class here whereas 2H frost has been traditionally our bursty spec. Also pretty neat for unholy that PB/UB/PL are all within ~137 dps of each other when picking the most optimal tier 4 and tier 7 talents and when changing tier 4 they’re still pretty close. Also pretty interesting to see that PB becomes the go to with unholy and DW frost.

    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbzvlib5lh...urst.html?dl=0


    Here’s the top 40 profiles for Mythic AoE sustained (5 targets at 450 secs intervals):

    Spoiler: 


    The top combinations for each of the specs are as follows:

    Unholy @ ~94440: PL/BT/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: BT (94440) > RC (94127) > RE (93210).
    Stat weights are: Str (17.07) > Mult (10.46) > Mastery (10.15) > Crit (7.55) > Vers (6.97) > Haste (4.87).

    DW frost @ ~67044: FC/RI/PL/BT/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: BT (67044) > RE (66105) > RC (65891).
    Stat weights are: Str (11.13) > Mastery (6.57) > Mult (5.36) > Vers (4.92) > Crit (4.59) > Haste (3.36).

    2H frost @ ~65357: FC/PL/BT/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are relatively close: BT (65357) > RE (64961) > RC (64410).
    Stat weights are: Str (10.88) > Mastery (6.40) > Mult (5.05) > Crit (4.84) ~= Vers (4.84) > Haste (1.71).


    Analysis: For unholy it seems as though PL takes over as being dominant with PB closely behind and UB not being too far off. Whereas for both frost specs PL is still dominant with the others not being too far off. Defile is still king here for all three. Not much really surprising here.

    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqerjtlyvo...ined.html?dl=0


    Here’s the top 40 profiles for Mythic AoE burst (5 targets at 30 secs intervals):

    Spoiler: 


    The top combinations for each of the specs are as follows:

    Unholy @ ~133533: PL/BT/BoS.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: BT (133533) > RE (133423) > RC (133085).
    Stat weights are: Str (21.12) > Mult (15.22) > Mastery (13.38) > Crit (10.39) > Vers (9.13) > Haste (2.29).

    DW frost @ ~106862: FC/RI/UB/BT/defile.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: BT (106862) > RE (105515) > RC (105081).
    Stat weights are: Str (15.28) > Mastery (9.54) > Mult (8.37) ~= Vers (7.93) ~= Crit (7.14) > Haste (2.27).

    2H frost @ ~119064: FC/PL/RE/BoS.
    All 3 rune regen talents are close: RE (119064) > RC (118890) > BT (116002).
    Stat weights are: Str (16.98) > Mult (11.90) > Mastery (10.25) > Vers (8.50) ~= Crit (8.31) > Haste (3.74).

    Analysis: For unholy it seems that the three tier 1 options are super close. BoS becomes top for unholy in a burst situation as expected. For 2H frost it seems that a combination of PL and BoS is the go to. For DW frost it’s interesting to see defile still the top for a burst situation. My estimate for this is that it’s harder to not only generally build up RP, but also to maintain it and still conduct sufficient AoE. For DW all tier 1 talents are pretty close when choosing defile.

    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kqz35zlbnl...urst.html?dl=0


    Here’s some analysis on multi-target (2-4) for sustained:

    For 2 targets sustained here’s the top 40 profiles:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s2yycqqgo7...ined.html?dl=0

    For 3 targets sustained here’s the top 40 profiles:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bkg654zc46...ined.html?dl=0

    For 4 targets sustained here’s the top 40 profiles:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/50dghb6le2...ined.html?dl=0

    Here’s some analysis on 5 targets for burst:

    30 secs burst:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kqz35zlbnl...urst.html?dl=0

    45 secs burst:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/px80l0aunp...urst.html?dl=0

    60 secs burst:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlsxobqvfe...urst.html?dl=0

    75 secs burst (ish):

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ctdoh1gax7...urst.html?dl=0

    90 secs burst (ish):

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqdux45q8d...urst.html?dl=0


    As far as races go here’s a breakdown for the three specs:

    Unholy:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x5g5ww3u9p...aces.html?dl=0

    DW frost:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qy6qf5njbb...aces.html?dl=0


    2H frost:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dzvcod0896...aces.html?dl=0


    Gear Analysis:


    Here’s the BiS for each of the 2h frost difficulties:

    2h frost @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/67ugwzoqi6...gear.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ heroic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4tum6pn5w...gear.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ normal:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l690kagwyw...gear.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ heroic dungeon gear:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8mpibclhrl...gear.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ highmaul BiS:
    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vbewxktgwl..._bis.html?dl=0

    Here’s the top 40 for each 2h frost spec:

    2h frost @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/67ugwzoqi6...gear.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ heroic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4tum6pn5w...gear.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ normal:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l690kagwyw...gear.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ heroic dungeon gear:

    Spoiler: 



    2h frost @ highmaul BiS:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vbewxktgwl..._bis.html?dl=0

    My analysis:
    The tier pieces we’ll want to take are head, chest, legs, and hands with shoulders as off-piece. Seems as though Kagraz’s Burning Blade will be a really close competitor through the tiers as another weapon. The same goes with our options for shoulders since they are all extremely close. Seems as though switching out chest tier for Chestplate of Rolling Fury and taking the tier shoulders is also a competitive set as well. Vertebrae Protector is also a viable option for a neck piece.


    Here’s the BiS for each of the unholy difficulties:

    Note that enchants for Unholy should all be multistrike!!! I forgot to update these when MS started to become better.

    unholy @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcgmj3goe8...gear.html?dl=0

    unholy @ heroic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3pkcl936m...gear.html?dl=0

    unholy @ normal:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/28iu8woclt...gear.html?dl=0

    unholy @ heroic dungeon:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ohatcla125...gear.html?dl=0

    unholy @ highmaul BiS:

    This should have neck/back enchants of MS as well.
    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4t52tx1p88..._bis.html?dl=0
    Here’s the top 40 for each unholy spec:

    unholy @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcgmj3goe8...gear.html?dl=0

    unholy @ heroic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3pkcl936m...gear.html?dl=0

    unholy @ normal:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/28iu8woclt...gear.html?dl=0

    unholy @ heroic dungeon:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ohatcla125...gear.html?dl=0


    unholy @ highmaul BiS:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4t52tx1p88..._bis.html?dl=0

    My analysis:
    The tier pieces we'll be looking at are head, shoulders, chest, and legs with hands as off-piece. Vial and Tectus seem pretty close for other trinkets. There are also pretty close weapon options with blackhand (though won’t get until later..) and crescent as well. Some other options for bracers, belt, and cloak are pretty close as well.



    Here’s the BiS for each of the dw frost difficulties:

    dw frost @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qgvtexcfp...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ heroic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp14axzxy2...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ normal:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hua0a05yy...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ heroic dungeon:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6v8bviwsr2...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ highmaul BiS:

    This should have enchants on neck/back of mastery.
    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvthu46zvi..._bis.html?dl=0

    Here’s the top 40 for each dw frost spec:

    dw frost @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5qgvtexcfp...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ heroic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp14axzxy2...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ normal:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hua0a05yy...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ heroic dungeon:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6v8bviwsr2...gear.html?dl=0

    dw frost @ highmaul BiS:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvthu46zvi..._bis.html?dl=0

    My analysis:
    It seems that weapons are pretty close between kromogs and taners at least (combinations of them as well). Seems that fleshmelter bracers are a competitive option for bracers. Also seems that flamefury gauntlets are pretty competitive and uktars belt of chiming rings as well. Close options too for cloak and ring.


    Here’s an updated trinket list for the three specs:


    Unholy from pre-raid:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1slzufwavy...raid.html?dl=0

    Unholy @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/quhwvm7wbr...list.html?dl=0

    2h frost from pre-raid:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2pek04majf...raid.html?dl=0

    2h frost @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mssfucf1sl...list.html?dl=0

    dw frost from pre-raid:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9rwrzalgdj...raid.html?dl=0

    Dw frost @ mythic:

    Spoiler: 


    Reference: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g5av372g7...list.html?dl=0

    Extra sim information:

    5 target sustained

    without glyph of outbreak:

    Spoiler: 


    with glyph:

    Spoiler: 


    Seems to be an increase for defile and, unsurprisingly, a loss for BoS.


    You can find all my profiles here:
    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1zf1uvhg4...mqjxcnHja?dl=0

    To do list:
    • Finish pre-raid gear lists.
    • Re-run raid gear profiles to reflect pvp trinket changes.
    • Model waiting playstyle for DW/2H frost (DW is simple whereas 2H is complicated). I know currently it’s a small gain, but want to see by how much exactly.
    • Start looking at next raid tier (750 ilvl and on).

  2. #2
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    Thankkkk youuuu

  3. #3
    Such info, so long. I think i'm going to link this to Chaud so he can be happy someone is using his tags.


    Edit: Also forgot to say that i'm going to put it into the helpful threads area.
    Last edited by Nangz; 2014-12-04 at 12:11 AM.

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Spoony, i understand that this is showing parses and gear combinations, but its not showing what gear was used for the BiS parse for Highmaul.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzyswiftz View Post
    Spoony, i understand that this is showing parses and gear combinations, but its not showing what gear was used for the BiS parse for Highmaul.
    If you click the "'spec' highmaul" under each specs gear lists in the ToC it has it there.

  7. #7
    thank you, that wasnt showing up earlier for me. But seems to be working now!, also in your highmaul BiS list. Your gear isnt showing a Neck/Ring/Back enchant.

  8. #8

  9. #9
    Why are the BiS from Unholy enchanted with mastery instead of multistrike if you state that multistrike weights more then mastery?

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Yopsi View Post
    Why are the BiS from Unholy enchanted with mastery instead of multistrike if you state that multistrike weights more then mastery?
    It's only a tiny bit better than mastery. So I could imagine it needs to be balanced. Like 1400 Multi 1000 Mastery

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzyswiftz View Post
    thank you, that wasnt showing up earlier for me. But seems to be working now!, also in your highmaul BiS list. Your gear isnt showing a Neck/Ring/Back enchant.
    Thanks I'll put that in my notes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yopsi View Post
    Why are the BiS from Unholy enchanted with mastery instead of multistrike if you state that multistrike weights more then mastery?
    It should be multistrike. These are a little old, still true, but back when mastery was super good.

    Updated it right about the links. I'll definitely re-run them again to get the picture right.

  12. #12
    Spoony, first man, TY TY TY I would kiss u if I could! This the only GOOD info I have found for DKs and besides is good, its not just good, is F@!&*¨@#@ awesome!! Really nice and wellmade topic.

    I got a question for you... is this topic newer than your post on SoL? I mean, I see some differences here and there when comes about trinket. For example, Kyanos trinket, is really worth it or better get a skull of war and some other HM drop?

    Sorry to ask, really only asking because I see different info.

    Also what about the status weight? They seems to be different from your post too, ty!

    Once more, AWESOME JOB!!!!

  13. #13
    Thanks for the hard work, Spoony.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by olivete View Post
    Spoony, first man, TY TY TY I would kiss u if I could! This the only GOOD info I have found for DKs and besides is good, its not just good, is F@!&*¨@#@ awesome!! Really nice and wellmade topic.

    I got a question for you... is this topic newer than your post on SoL? I mean, I see some differences here and there when comes about trinket. For example, Kyanos trinket, is really worth it or better get a skull of war and some other HM drop?

    Sorry to ask, really only asking because I see different info.

    Also what about the status weight? They seems to be different from your post too, ty!

    Once more, AWESOME JOB!!!!
    Yeh this is more updated, it's a lot easier to maintain here with a ToC. I believe the Kyanos trinket is definitely worth it since it's BiS for a while.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Uspoonybard View Post
    Yeh this is more updated, it's a lot easier to maintain here with a ToC. I believe the Kyanos trinket is definitely worth it since it's BiS for a while.
    Thank you very much for your reply Spoony!!! Dude you saved us with all that info! Thank you man!

  16. #16
    Hi Spoony, thanks for all the work you have done here.

    I have a specific question about the simulation results for soul reaper. Last night, when going over the logs of ~10 Butcher pulls, i noticed my soul reaper damage was not consistent with what Sims predicted. For 38 recorded instances of the proc, Warcraftlogs shows an average of 40781 damage.

    imgur FGzn9Yc (sorry, cant post links yet)

    However, in Simcraft, the damage projected for the tick on soul reaper is ~70800

    imgur fv7qmuv
    imgur hsI8lUs

    Looking over the top parses from UH DK's on butcher shows a similar pattern. The soul reaper tick seems to be hitting for around ~40-45k, where sims project it to be 70k+.

    Maybe I am missing something simple here in terms of how things are calculated, but its seems to me that soul reaper is behaving differently from sims than in practice. Have you noticed anything similar?

    Anyway, thanks for all your work on these sims, really enjoyed reading it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cersee View Post
    Hi Spoony, thanks for all the work you have done here.

    I have a specific question about the simulation results for soul reaper. Last night, when going over the logs of ~10 Butcher pulls, i noticed my soul reaper damage was not consistent with what Sims predicted. For 38 recorded instances of the proc, Warcraftlogs shows an average of 40781 damage.

    imgur FGzn9Yc (sorry, cant post links yet)

    However, in Simcraft, the damage projected for the tick on soul reaper is ~70800

    imgur fv7qmuv
    imgur hsI8lUs

    Looking over the top parses from UH DK's on butcher shows a similar pattern. The soul reaper tick seems to be hitting for around ~40-45k, where sims project it to be 70k+.

    Maybe I am missing something simple here in terms of how things are calculated, but its seems to me that soul reaper is behaving differently from sims than in practice. Have you noticed anything similar?

    Anyway, thanks for all your work on these sims, really enjoyed reading it.
    Yes there's currently an issue posted for it to be fixed.

  18. #18
    This might be a dumb question. Are we accounting for players using Str pots during the execute phase? Its hard to tell if the player parses are doing that, because the sim certainly is I would imagine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, it looks like simc uptime for FC is significantly lower than ingame. SimC says FC uptime should be 62%. Actual in game logs are showing 70-77%. Ive looked through dozens of fights so far. Ive never seen below 70% uptime. Spoony, check your PMs.

  19. #19
    Hey Spoony, after reading Tunick's thread, I started thinking about what I've been doing with AoE on Imperator Mar'guk. During transition phases, I was on Volatile Anomaly AoE duty, killing them and controlling the rate at which they explode. Aside from Defile, I was using Unholy runes to put SR on adds that would be in the health range for the secondary damage to go off. However, if I used it outside of that "sweet spot" to trigger the 50% haste buff instead, I could indirectly do more AoE by getting more runes for BB. Presumably, there should be a way to determine how many adds need to be hit by BB for SR's haste "option" to outweigh the extra single target "option" of the SR explosion. If you get some time, feedback on this would be appreciated.

  20. #20
    Great job, thanks! I'm curious how the frost boosts from hotfix affect thing. I had planned to sim myself when they update simulationcraft but I might just wait for your results as they are so thorough.

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