Rogues are still Super Squish (PVP)

[Packing an i5]

If i had to name softest class in the game (PVP) aside from shadow priest. Its Rogue. No doubt. Evasion lasts 10 seconds. There are unavoidable Stuns in game still. You can still be Stunned from Behind. When your stunned evasion does zip it doesn't also include a damage reduction.

Our only damage reduction is Feint which costs 20 energy and has a very short duration you have to anticipate when your going to take big damage and press feint with the elusiveness talent yet often you feint. Get stunned, stunned again on DR (at this point feint has worn off and get squished.

Recuperate is a pathetic heal. It still somewhat effective at recovering health like eating food or using a bandage and it can be done from stealth.

It ticks slowly every 3 seconds and heals for just 3%. We lost the 1 % bonus introduced on the pvp gloves in 5.2 for Mop. Recuperate was originally planned to receive a significant buff over the beta and that buff was reverted.


To me Recuperate often feels like a waste of combo points and energy the heal is worthless while taking any damage. There are some Dots in the game that deal triple the damage of what recuperate heals on a tick.

*Passive Survivability* I think this class desperately needs more passive toughness. We have none, other than weak leather armor to negate some physical damage.

I hate Feint, feels like a tanking mechanic. Its not fun to spam and you do end up spamming it and dropping all damage while also spamming BOS trying to run for your life completely out of energy.

So just not use Feint huh? No can do Cheat death was nerfed and just doesnt cut it these days by itself. Often it triggers and you die anyway. Dont get me wrong I use to love this talent and want to love it still. I used it a lot in mop over feint and with a healer i felt it could still be life saving in an arena.

But it got nerfed to 7% for its activation and still has a long internal CD. It would need to also heal you or place you in stealth like vanish does to be anywhere close to on par with Feint in pvp situation.

Apparently its still strong for pve and it was too strong so they nerfed it. It should be buffed even if only in (PVP)


Leeching Poison. Garbage heal. they actually buffed this healing poison by 5% but nerfed the Shiv Heal. You dont get enough uptime and it just doesnt heal enough for this to be any good in pvp. One spec Combat benefits the most from this talent because of instant proc auto attacks and killing spree.

Unrelated note:

(Its still good for leveling hell even mandatory if you ask me and soloing old bosses but otherwise worthless. I would of rather kept Paralytic Poison over this poison anyday for end game pvp. Of course it was strange a thing like Para poison made it to live anyway.

The Proc stun from paralytic had an increased chance to apply with envenom so that talent was amazing with assassination my prefered spec I miss it dearly by the end of Mop I never changed talents in that tier for anything else. Even just for the root was very helpful.)

My major gripe with this class I use to be infatuated with for many years is that throughout the years other than a pause in cataclysm the class has been incredibly squishy. Our control is still matched by other classes now so that doesnt make up for it.

Subterfuge was nerfed I only used it for its defensive properties. That was a huge blow to our survivability. Combat readiness is mediocre and back up to a 2 min CD. Nerve Strike was nerfed a long time ago.

That garbage combined with~ Classic Stealth Bugs and a new glyph that encourages you to use vanish offensively often makes for a very very fragile Rogue.

Maybe im just terrible go ahead say it but In my humble opinion as a rogue player of 6 years this class needs some love in the survivability department.

It feels like wrath and has been for a long time taking big damage all the time when getting focused the only reprieve was subterfuge in Mists and overpowered recuperate in cataclysm.

[Karry]

It's not that rogue has poor survivability it's more about the othe popular classes atm on top of the arena charts being completely overpowered. If Boomer/Mage/Warlock/ret/Hunter/DK wouldnt be doing so much damn dmg, we would be just fine. Also anticipating swaps and using feint and combat readiness is key to survival. Recuperate does decent healing I think, though a 1% buff wouldnt hurt. If you are basing how good our survival is on how arenas are going atm, you can't really judge it. Healers most of the time dont survive the opener against anything that has ret in it.

Like for example, Reckful got on a Paladin ( an account given to him by a viewer I think, wasnt his anyways ) and he barely knew how to play it. The first like 20 games ( which were still at 2k+ rating ) he wouldnt know or be used to pressing the buttons that needed to be pressed. He even had typos in his one-shot macro and only activated wings and didnt even use that hammer thingy that falls on your head and STILL they won every single game and he did more dmg than anybody, all this while off-healing lilke he was a damn healer + all the utility and low cooldown HoJ.

So you can really complain atm since there are overpowered classes in play. If classes did more normal dmg, like rogue or a just a bit better than rogue, it would be cool, but atm you really can't say anything since the season has just started. Also, if you play 2v2s, you have to change your mentality and be ok with the fact that there are comps atm that will just win no matter what you do.

[tehpud]

Sorry but I disagree. While other classes have damage avoidance and mitigation that seems superior to ours, we have other tools to our disposal. From cloak of shadows, evasion, feint, bomb, vanish and combat readiness - we have plenty of tools to our arsenal for defense. Cool downs that seem offensive are sometimes better used to be defensive such as kidney and shadow dance for stun. Rogues are a get in and get out. The tides of the match also rely on your teammates and playing defensively well.

As much as I would love to see rogues get more buffs, like any class would for them, I think we are in a good spot. Like the post above, other classes have it extremely well. Better than rogues. But we have a Swiss army knife of utilities that can make us quite deadly and capable of surviving.

1v1 or 2v2 I can definitely understand the issues. I always try to anticipate enemy reaction and use my tools to help I.e. Blinding a warrior during his burst or when his charge is on CD to anticipate then storm bolt.

Sorry typing this on my phone. I Have a lot of experience in high bracket pvp in rbgs and arena. If it adds any credibility to my opinions. Not everyone will agree.

[Playintrafic]

Welcome to rougeing. Wear leather, no magic. Sneak up on stuff, stab, stab. Then hideing much so to not be dieing much.

[Deleted]

It's really not as bad as you think if you use your defensive abilities properly. I've managed to carry flags in RBG's (HotA/2.2k+ member team) and survive very well, even our healers said it was easier to keep me alive compared to our guardian druid (who has now switched to feral since it's better than guardian, rofl).

Some classes are doing insane damage at the moment, and does attribute to a lot of situations where you will die very quickly, but it applies for most other classes too (unless the class has bubble or something very similar, they'll die).

[Ktperry]

Make Feint useable while CC'd and im happy.

[Pebbel]

People should really put their arena experience when talking about this kind of stuff. A lot of class problems could be personal and easily fixed with a change of perspective and/or playstyle.

[Mac223]

It's not that rogue has poor survivability it's more about the othe popular classes atm on top of the arena charts being completely overpowered. If Boomer/Mage/Warlock/ret/Hunter/DK wouldnt be doing so much damn dmg, we would be just fine.

Tried qing for 2v2 as rogue/monk. An arcane mage did 700k damage in no more than ten seconds. A DK killed both of us through our CDs while his partner was CCd, and he lived with full health. Even though we suck, it's still pretty obvious that some classes have too much burst and too easy of a time dishing it out.

[Pebbel]

Tried qing for 2v2 as rogue/monk. An arcane mage did 700k damage in no more than ten seconds. A DK killed both of us through our CDs while his partner was CCd, and he lived with full health. Even though we suck, it's still pretty obvious that some classes have too much burst and too easy of a time dishing it out.

You're playing a class that has a bit of skill curve. If you acknowledge that you're below par, just play a class that's easier to get into.

[Karry]

Tried qing for 2v2 as rogue/monk. An arcane mage did 700k damage in no more than ten seconds. A DK killed both of us through our CDs while his partner was CCd, and he lived with full health. Even though we suck, it's still pretty obvious that some classes have too much burst and too easy of a time dishing it out.

Oh man that hurts. Yeah I saw Frost DKs get a rogue from 100% to 10% with Combat Rediness at 5 stacks in like 4-5 seconds. Insane.

[slime]

Its been this way since vanilla ended. Rogues were OP in vanilla, many many people cried. So many people cried, rogues will never be buffed beyond mediocre ever again. I guess I'm fine with this, it's the hypocritical stance blizz takes that boggles the mind. Okay so rogues have stuns and lots of people cry over stuns so rogues will be weak outside of their stun locking shenanigans. So why are warriors / dks almost every other melee class allowed to be OP (or unkillable as in dks).

[tehpud]

People should really put their arena experience when talking about this kind of stuff. A lot of class problems could be personal and easily fixed with a change of perspective and/or playstyle.

You are right. I Posted above, my CR is 2185 in RBG. I have achieved Hero of the Alliance te seasons in a row and have 2200+ experience in arenas.

To the OP and another post: 2s is not where the game is balanced. In 2s your partner has a substantial effect on the outcome of the fight.

I never compare my damage to another DPS. You are a rogue. As a rogue your primary job is to set up kills, CC and keep casters/healers locked down, and time with your partners on when to burst based on opponent CDs and your own.

Regarding surviving : and as Pebble said. This class has a learning curve. And that curve is also heavily dependent on your understanding of all other class cool downs and anticipating their next moves. Without that then you are guessing and setting yourself up for getting ccd into a burst (like an FoJ gang train on you).

[Vehemence]

I really like Combat Readiness and Elusiveness, but once CR is off cooldown I feel so exposed. Glyph of Cloak of Shadows is nice too, if you're going against some nasty warrior/death knight. Even with Evasion nerf from 15 to 10, that feels weird.

That reminds me, where is expose armor? I haven't played in Pandaria so I have no idea why things were removed/changed.

[Deleted]

As a rogue your primary job is to set up kills, CC and keep casters/healers locked down, and time with your partners on when to burst based on opponent CDs and your own.

It's so disheartening to have my favorite class laid out like that, what fun is it being the utility knife that does weak damage?
I'd gladly trade some toolkit for more damage.

[tehpud]

It's so disheartening to have my favorite class laid out like that, what fun is it being the utility knife that does weak damage?
I'd gladly trade some toolkit for more damage.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But there is good news. We do plenty of damage. I don't expect to out damage certain classes but that utility we provide with the damage we do have has the capability of turning the tides of a fight, save your partner and burst a enemy down effectively.

It's not negative but all those great tools to our disposal make us extremely efficient killing machines.

[Packing an i5]

It's so disheartening to have my favorite class laid out like that, what fun is it being the utility knife that does weak damage?
I'd gladly trade some toolkit for more damage.

agreed. Pvp for a while now has been easier for pure damage classes. WHoever does the most damage wins. When warriors are overtuned they are far superior to rogues in a pvp enviroment.

There are classes with lots of control that also do much more damage than we do see~ Hunters.

I would at this point give up smokebomb for my spec assassination in exchange for a huge damage buff because smoke doesnt work all that well with the spec anyway its more suited to Sub, Dance always lines up with smoke not so with vendetta.

They might get nerfed but right now Ret paladins, hunters, ferals do far more damage than we ever could and deathknights. We need far more uptime than they do to do the same amount of dps because we use daggers and a lot of our damage comes from autoattacking.

[Warstar]

Aren't DKs mostly magic damage so wouldn't CR not really do much vs. them?

[Deleted]

Aren't DKs mostly magic damage so wouldn't CR not really do much vs. them?

CR reduces all damage, it's just activated by physical damage, so it works just as well against Dks since they do both.

[waddlez]

At the moment energy regen is so bad that you must either choose to use it for survival purposes (feint, burst of speed) or offensive cycle (very weak damage). As I also play warrior (glad spec) my main complaint is that with warrior there is always enough rage to do the next move and that move matters. With rogue I find myself energy starved and the damage is extremely weak (20k envenoms or 10k backstabs depending on spec). Here comes the feral, rakes you for 80-90k lols sprints away comes back finishes you off in a glimpse. GG?

I've also found damage to be weak. Hitting a paladin with what seems to be daggers made of wet noodles through CS and 5p KS doesn't get him nearly as low as when he turns it around on me and gets 30k divine storms and melee hits that are more than my backstabs... Trying my warlock now, but it seems to be even worse for the other pures (that aren't hunters).

All I have near 100 is a shaman, a rogue, and a warlock... I guess returning to WoW was a mistake.

[tehpud]

I'm not sure why people believe that as a rogue you should be constantly spamming your abilities. At low level PVP, sure, you can get away with that. At higher levels, you should be pooling and planning your burst stages with your partner. I haven't had a single issue with lack of pressure being kept up on a dps or healer. I play SUB and 2200+ RBG and working my way up 3s, started yesterday.

I have been able to keep a healer on lock down, watching DR, without an issue. The ability to also be an extremely effective peeler and staging the kill in a bomb or chain CC on a healer has been a good experience thus far in this expansion.

I do not expect to see 50k crits back to back. I expect to see faster hits combined with stuns/CC to get the job done. Rogue is one of the few classes that has a very high skill cap. I have seen many rogues play like warriors and that is just not the play style to be an effective utility for your team. Float between enemies in 3s, communicate, plan your CC out during offensive stages to stage the kill OR plan your CC out during defensive to keep your partners alive without extraordinary struggle.

Edit - Spelling error