What has Blizzard done to Warrior DPS...

[Gandrake]

Blizzard took all of Arms and all of Fury's DPS and gave it to Protection, gift wrapped in Gladiator stance.

no, they didn't

they nerfed the fuck out of warriors before the expansion even dropped because OH NOES MUH PEASANT CLASS DPS CANT KEEP UP WITH WARRIORS IN IRRELEVANT CONTENT NERF PLS

[Deleted]

Your only gripe with Gladiator is that its found under protection talents instead of in its own separate pane? That's.... so inconsequential its not even worth talking about.

You think it's inconsequential that Protection gets a DPS talent outperforming both Arms and Fury, thus achieving twice the utility of the other specs for the price of one? Okay. Never mind that this is why nobody has any reason to play the other specs at the moment. Why would you play a pure DPS spec when you can spec Protection and still do just as much, if not more, DPS?

[Syh]

Your only gripe with Gladiator is that its found under protection talents instead of in its own separate pane? That's.... so inconsequential its not even worth talking about.

Yeah, he's mostly arguing semantics and has a self righteous view on players who swapped to Gladiator because they're 'FOTM trash sell outs' (to paraphrase):

the people who play it are comprised out of those who have abandoned the idea of fixing Arms and Fury in favour of playing an overpowered and apparently fun spec. These actions betray a lack of integrity that I find repelling. Many of the best performing raiders fall into this category, which is a shame. [...] All of this is to say that I resent Gladiator because it made so many good Warriors disregard the bigger picture in favour of becoming sell-outs.

He's so vindictive about it that he's glad (no pun intended) that tanks got nerfed in addition to Glad, despite them having completely different roles and the fact that tanks are entirely independent of Gladiator stance:

Since Warrior Tanks and Warrior Gladiators are both Protection specced, it follows that they'd both get nerfed by it.

As far as I'm concerned, the Gladiator's Resolve talent is as close to a new spec as a talent can get. It changes your rotation, skills, alters stat priority, AND dictates your other talent choices. Hey, that sounds familiar, almost like switching to a new spec!

Yeah, sure, the only difference is that you can switch to tank as Gladiator easier than any other spec can switch to tank but I have yet to see him bring that into the argument. If that's his argument then I'd rather him state that, this semantics thing is honestly a bullshit facade (which I will get to).

If Gladiator becomes a spec of its own, then I don't care if it does more DPS than the other specs.

Holy fuck man, Gladiator was made to be DPS. You act like it's actual tanks doing top tier DPS while tanking the raid boss. That's not the case; you can't even switch stances once combat is initiated. Were you not aware of this? Did you think tanks were doing this DPS? The talent overhauls Protection to make it DPS, so much so that it's practically a spec of it's own regardless of how petty you want to get with the terminology semantics.

Honestly, that statement is so illogical... if it were a spec of it's own, virtually nothing would be different. It would just say 'Gladiator Spec' instead of 'Gladiator Stance'... You would STILL be complaining that people went Gladiator instead of trying to get Blizzard to fix fury/arms. Them naming it 'Gladiator Spec' changes nothing.

Yes, I agree that fury and arms DO need to be looked at, but not at the expense of Gladiator solely because of some vindictive self-righteous view towards the players who went Gladiator... and especially not at the expense of Warrior tanks.

[FayrenPickpocket]

You think it's inconsequential that Protection gets a DPS talent outperforming both Arms and Fury, thus achieving twice the utility of the other specs for the price of one? Okay. Never mind that this is why nobody has any reason to play the other specs at the moment. Why would you play a pure DPS spec when you can spec Protection and still do just as much, if not more, DPS?

Because Prot and Glad have two totally different stat priorities so they need different gear. Yes, they are under the same name, but if you're tanking, you're not glad. If you're glad, you're not tanking. Glad doesn't have "twice the utility," they just have different utility from the Fury or Arms counter parts.

If you're spec'ing prot to do damage, you're doing it because you enjoy how Glad Stance warrior behaves. Same reason why people still play arms and fury. Yes, Prot has that overlap of tanking/damage dealing, but the things required to be viable with each one is completely different.

[Sorthalis]

I think you're just butthurt that prot now has more options than fury or arms at this point.

Advantages of Glad:
-Takes less physical damage than normal melee (shield/armor)
-Has more personal survive-ability (Blood craze/shield wall/demo shout/last stand)
-Allows for easy switching to a tank when wanted

Disadvantages of Glad:
-Loss of a talent row
-No raid CD (no rally cry)
-Bad multi-target (compared to arms)
-Has to roll/have bonus armor gear to stay competitive

It is a pretty balanced spec overall. You are just bitching for the sake of bitching because you have some stupid internal conflict/childish problem with warriors doing good DPS with a shield on.

[Deleted]

Bring al the specs inline. Its not that glad needs a nerf just the others need some form of buff.

gladiator is frantic fun play style alot more furious than fury. And seems to be more formidable than arms. Without gladiator stance right now warriors all around would have to deal with the horrors of both fury and arms in there current states.

always thought making berserver rage should be empowered for fury warriors. Causing crits to no longer enrage you instead give it a shorter cd and making enrage last 30 seconds or something. Like a slice and dice for a rogue bt crits still grant the raging blow charges. Gives you smaller cd to manage adds a smidge of depth.

[Xaelai]

FinalBoss is doing an interview with the lead class designer, Kris Zeirhut on Sunday. If you are dissatisfied, I'd encourage you to show up to the stream and rabble rabble. @ Twitch.tv/finalboss

They'll just dodge the subject of Arms/Fury Warriors like they always do.

Arms might put out "OK" DPS but the spec is FREAKING HORRIBLE TO PLAY because it is SO DAMN BORING.

Fury is more fun, but the DPS output is horrible.

Then we have Ret that is fun to play AND kicks copious amounts of ass. Why would I ever want to play my Warrior beyond getting her to Lv100 for max blacksmithing ingots per day, when I can play my Ret and kick ass like no tomorrow?

Which is..... precisely what I've been doing.

And to think, I liked Arms in MoP....

[madmanx]

Welcome to the first patch of a new xpack. Where ferals and rets are nuts and most pure dps classes and warriors are shit. It has been this way since the release of TBC and it will pass...yet again...

[Xaelai]

Welcome to the first patch of a new xpack. Where ferals and rets are nuts and most pure dps classes and warriors are shit. It has been this way since the release of TBC and it will pass...yet again...

Release of TBC = lolret

So....no, nothing like TBC.

When Paladins first came to Outland, they were lolret. When they first came to Draenor, they are godly.

[Deleted]

Gladiator warriors are fine.

The output of Arms/Fury, however, is not.

[Xaelai]

Gladiator warriors are fine.

The output of Arms/Fury, however, is not.

And again, Arms Gameplay.

Eeeew.

Lots of downtime (moreso than pretty much any other melee class, maybe even caster classes too), very little randomness (none if you took something other than that sudden death talent), just.... nothing interesting about Arms.

[MMKing]

Because Prot and Glad have two totally different stat priorities so they need different gear. Yes, they are under the same name, but if you're tanking, you're not glad. If you're glad, you're not tanking. Glad doesn't have "twice the utility," they just have different utility from the Fury or Arms counter parts.

If you're spec'ing prot to do damage, you're doing it because you enjoy how Glad Stance warrior behaves. Same reason why people still play arms and fury. Yes, Prot has that overlap of tanking/damage dealing, but the things required to be viable with each one is completely different.

The stat priority isn't really that different. Both enjoy ''bonus armor'' as their highest secondary stat. The second secondary stat of gladiator stance is so close to one another that you might as well pick any of them, which is what most classes are forced to do when faced with an ilvl upgrade. As long as the new higher ilvl item has the best secondary stat, the second secondary stat doesn't weigh up/down enough to justify staying at a lower Ilvl.

Fury and arms on the other hand isn't even close to what a protection warrior wants. In addition to this, they aren't even close to the damage that gladiator can output with very few exceptions in highmaul. In fact, the only scenario i can come up with is the spectator area on Kargath which is an extremely easy boss.

Unless you plan on pushing mythic, you're just going to pick up the loot with bonus armor and in almost all cases give little thought to the 3rd stat. So in the end, gladiators and protection end up with the same gear either way.

[Deleted]

1)Yeah, he's mostly arguing semantics and has a self righteous view on players who swapped to Gladiator because they're 'FOTM trash sell outs' (to paraphrase):



2) He's so vindictive about it that he's glad (no pun intended) that tanks got nerfed in addition to Glad, despite them having completely different roles and the fact that tanks are entirely independent of Gladiator stance:



3) As far as I'm concerned, the Gladiator's Resolve talent is as close to a new spec as a talent can get. It changes your rotation, skills, alters stat priority, AND dictates your other talent choices. Hey, that sounds familiar to switching to a new spec!

4) Yeah, sure, the only difference is that you can switch to tank as Gladiator easier than any other spec can switch to tank but I have yet to see him bring that into the argument. If that's his argument then I'd rather him state that, this semantics thing is honestly a bullshit facade (which I will get to).



5) Holy fuck man, Gladiator was made to be DPS. You act like it's actual tanks doing top tier DPS while tanking the raid boss. That's not the case; you can't even switch stances once combat is initiated. Were you not aware of this? Did you think tanks were doing this DPS? The talent overhauls Protection to make it DPS, so much so that it's practically a spec of it's own regardless of how petty you want to get with the terminology semantics.

6)Honestly, that statement is so illogical... if it were a spec of it's own, virtually nothing would be different. It would just say 'Gladiator Spec' instead of 'Gladiator Stance'... You would STILL be complaining that people went Gladiator instead of trying to get Blizzard to fix fury/arms. Them naming it 'Gladiator Spec' changes nothing.

7) Yes, I agree that fury and arms DO need to be looked at, but not at the expense of Gladiator solely because of some vindictive self-righteous view towards the players who went Gladiator... and especially not at the expense of Warrior tanks.

1) I definitely think that the Gladiator hype has been detrimental to fixing the problems with Arms and Fury, especially among high-end raiders. Is this being self-righteous? I find it perfectly logical. Everybody despairs over having no good DPS spec to play, which puts pressure on Blizzard to sort out Fury and Arms -> Blizzard overpowers Protection -> Everybody plays Protection and instantly it's as if all of the issues from before have somehow gone away. I know that this is how competitive raiders think anyway -- you have to play that which works the best at the moment -- but in this case I think that it has damaged everyone's prior efforts to have Fury and Arms changed. I don't think this is an unreasonable hypothesis at all.

2) This is a straw man. Contrary to your portrayal of me, I didn't say anywhere that I was happy that tanks got nerfed because of Gladiator. As part of this you also claim that tanks are entirely independent of Gladiator stance. I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but I've never said anything to the effect that Gladiators are tanks or anything similar. What I have said that they're both part of the Protection spec, which is completely different.

3) Yeah, I suppose all of those things happen when you change to a new spec. Still doesn't make Gladiator into its own spec.

4) This is one of the very obvious implications of the fact that they are both part of the Protection spec, which is completely central to what I've argued all along. I don't see why such redundancies even require mentioning.

5) I am aware of all the things you mention and they are irrelevant to my argument. I have (again) not said anywhere that Gladiators are tanks or anything of the sort.

6) Everything would be different. You wouldn't be able to access both viable DPS and tanking abilities through a single spec, which would mean that you wouldn't have an obviously overriding reason to spec Protection instead of Fury or Arms. Why is this so difficult to understand?

7) None of my reasons for saying that Gladiator is an overpowered talent are in any way based on the idea that the people playing as Gladiators are somehow bad or anything similar. My reasoning on that topic comprised the 75% of my first post (post #15) that you didn't quote in your response to me here. Your hostility towards me seems to stem mostly from having latched onto a peripheral remark I made.

Because Prot and Glad have two totally different stat priorities so they need different gear. Yes, they are under the same name, but if you're tanking, you're not glad. If you're glad, you're not tanking. Glad doesn't have "twice the utility," they just have different utility from the Fury or Arms counter parts.

If you're spec'ing prot to do damage, you're doing it because you enjoy how Glad Stance warrior behaves. Same reason why people still play arms and fury. Yes, Prot has that overlap of tanking/damage dealing, but the things required to be viable with each one is completely different.

To argue like this does allow you to escape the issue, but to do so would make Gladiator and its development look even more questionable than it already does. I'll readily admit that my entire understanding of the Gladiator stance is premised on the idea that Blizzard introduced it so that tanks wouldn't have to bring separate gear sets in order to do competitive DPS. I have mentioned this at various points in the thread already without being called out on this assertion, so I don't take it to be a very contentious claim. If it is therefore true that Gladiator stance was implemented as a countermeasure to having to bring a second set of gear but nonetheless requires this as you claim, then there is no reason for Gladiator to exist in the first place. It would mean that the present situation is no different from having tanks bring Fury or Arms gear just like before, so no progress would have been made in the intended direction. If all of this is true, then it seems that the chief reason for Gladiator to exist is because some people wanted a sword and board DPS alternative, which really isn't what Blizzard should be spending their Warrior development time on given the abysmal state of the other specs.

[Treno]

As a Non-Gladiator Warrior (and Warrior from day 1) I'm happy with the change. Sword n Board DPS was way underrepresented in WoW and I'm happy people are enjoying it. I'm sticking to smf fur through thick and thin though, mainly because I enjoy it and tend to play it better than any other warrior spec.

[Deleted]

To argue like this does allow you to escape the issue, but to do so would make Gladiator and its development look even more questionable than it already does. I'll readily admit that my entire understanding of the Gladiator stance is premised on the idea that Blizzard introduced it so that tanks wouldn't have to bring separate gear sets in order to do competitive DPS. I have mentioned this at various points in the thread already without being called out on this assertion, so I don't take it to be a very contentious claim. If it is therefore true that Gladiator stance was implemented as a countermeasure to having to bring a second set of gear but nonetheless requires this as you claim,.

I have no idea where you got this notion of an idea from, but it's completely and utterly false.

Gear just switching over tier set effects and different main stats, was implemented so that you don't have to bring 2 sets of gear.

Gladiator spec is an actual intended DPS spec. This has been stated by Blizzard several times.

Also, just because you happen to find loopholes with semantics, does not mean Gladiator spec is somehow "not a spec" or "not a intended way to play".

That is a severe misconception on your part, and nowhere has it been stated anywhere, by anyone, that it's meant to be a talent of convinience.

Also, why wouldn't they spend resources on having sword and board gameplay? Are you somehow the sole benefactor, deciding what people find fun to play? I think this is why people are arguing that you are self-righteous and not really justifying a point - You are essentialy trying to dictate that Gladiator stance should not excist because of your skewed point of view of it.

All that needs to be done, is to fix the output of Fury and Arms - It has nothing to do with gladiator stance. They are two compeltely different beasts. People just get mad because they see Gladiator doing fine, and now it's somehow the root of all evil - "OH WOE IS ME, 'PROT' (lol) CAN OUTDPS ME".

In reality, it's just misdirected anger at the real issue - Fury and Arms being poop at the moment.

[MMKing]

''gladiator is fine, everyone else needs a buff'' is wrong. And here is why.

Gladiator has massive amounts of armor, which is the byproduct of having a sword and board dps. In addition to this, the primary stat for damage is even more armor. Normally plate users enjoy less mobility or survivability due to this. Warriors have great mobility, charge on enemy, charge on friendly and jump with a fairly long CD with talent and glyphs that further increase mobility. Retribution paladins have very good survivability, and rely on a higher movement speed to get around but no instant way of moving around. Mages on the other hand have very good of both: Blink, clones, ice block and time lapse is a godsend if played at the right time.

Gladiator warriors on the other hand, have everything that fury/arms have on top of their massive armor advantage. But in addition they also have a short charge for 10 yards for 2 stacks 15 seconds cd which is not on the global cooldown. Which is fine but they deal significantly more damage than either.

- more damage
- more mobility
- More healing received, you still have the resolve passive
- Much more resilient vs physical damage
- Most appealing secondary stat is identical to protection stance
- 739 bonus armor with ilvl 630 shield

[Deleted]

Gladiator is its own spec and requires different gear to be effective. If you try to DPS as glad in prot gear then you won't be beating anyone on the meters. Glad is also inferior to arms for aoe fights like Tectus, Twin Ogrons, Brackenspore and Kargath if you're one of the DPS going to the stands. Glad is our 3rd DPS spec and it has a very engaging playstyle. May it continue to be competitive.

Thats a cool story gobshite, but its also wrong. Glad uses the exact same gear as prot does.

[Deleted]

''gladiator is fine, everyone else needs a buff'' is wrong. And here is why.

Gladiator has massive amounts of armor, which is the byproduct of having a sword and board dps. In addition to this, the primary stat for damage is even more armor. Normally plate users enjoy less mobility or survivability due to this. Warriors have great mobility, charge on enemy, charge on friendly and jump with a fairly long CD with talent and glyphs that further increase mobility. Retribution paladins have very good survivability, and rely on a higher movement speed to get around but no instant way of moving around. Mages on the other hand have very good of both: Blink, clones, ice block and time lapse is a godsend if played at the right time.

Gladiator warriors on the other hand, have everything that fury/arms have on top of their massive armor advantage. But in addition they also have a short charge for 10 yards for 2 stacks 15 seconds cd which is not on the global cooldown. Which is fine but they deal significantly more damage than either.

- more damage
- more mobility
- More healing received, you still have the resolve passive
- Much more resilient vs physical damage
- Most appealing secondary stat is identical to protection stance
- 739 bonus armor with ilvl 630 shield

They don't. They don't have rallying cry (a raid CD), defensive stance (20% dmg reduction on demand), and Die by the Sword.

And how is it appealing that you are leeching loot from the tanks? That seems like a rather big drawback to me.

[Deleted]

''gladiator is fine, everyone else needs a buff'' is wrong. And here is why.

Gladiator has massive amounts of armor, which is the byproduct of having a sword and board dps. In addition to this, the primary stat for damage is even more armor. Normally plate users enjoy less mobility or survivability due to this. Warriors have great mobility, charge on enemy, charge on friendly and jump with a fairly long CD with talent and glyphs that further increase mobility. Retribution paladins have very good survivability, and rely on a higher movement speed to get around but no instant way of moving around. Mages on the other hand have very good of both: Blink, clones, ice block and time lapse is a godsend if played at the right time.

Gladiator warriors on the other hand, have everything that fury/arms have on top of their massive armor advantage. But in addition they also have a short charge for 10 yards for 2 stacks 15 seconds cd which is not on the global cooldown. Which is fine but they deal significantly more damage than either.

- more damage
- more mobility
- More healing received, you still have the resolve passive
- Much more resilient vs physical damage
- Most appealing secondary stat is identical to protection stance
- 739 bonus armor with ilvl 630 shield

I wish mongs like you who dont know what they're on about kept their fat mouths shut :^)

just an example, resolve doesnt work in glad stance.

[Deleted]

Thats a cool story gobshite, but its also wrong. Glad uses the exact same gear as prot does.

Gladiator benefits more from crit and haste, Prot probably benefits more from Mastery or Versatility.

Different stat prio for different ends.