Unleash elements vs Elemental blast in the new patch?

[Cameltotem]

Heyo!

Since they buffed EB damage with 10% will that be a better talent now considering UE was just a little bit better before.

For us min/maxing people this is obviously important so if you have any insight please leave a comment.

For elemental

[Deleted]

Heyo!

Since they buffed EB damage with 10% will that be a better talent now considering UE was just a little bit better before.

For us min/maxing people this is obviously important so if you have any insight please leave a comment.

What spec?

[Walozdle]

I doubt it considering LB and LvB got 10% buffs as well, for ele at least.

[Anzen]

What spec?

I'd imagine he's talking about Elemental since basically all Enhancers use Primal Elementalist.

As said though, LB & LvB also got buffed, UF will still be better.

[Deleted]

AS/PE/EF and EotE/UF/EF ranked broth very high in my HM hc split. There's not so much room for EB, and EotE/UF/EF is a good option for kargath, butcher and brackenspore ^^

[TheTieThatBinds]

I actually use EotE/EB/EF, and do just fine on fights. At a 638 ilvl, im pulling about 15-18k per boss fight in HM(granted, I've only done 4 fights, and Im also a flamethrower on Brackenspore). There really isn't a DPS change for either for me, as tested on Dummy, specifically a 10% increase in dmg on LB, and 30% on LvB equal out on 550 Multistrike/Crit/Haste that you get every 15 sec.

Im normally putting up a 120% increased damaged FS with EF and UF though whenever I get the chance though.

[Deleted]

The buffs to Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt (10% too each) equate to 10% more damage from the Unleash Fury talent (as its damage is mostly in those two abilities, the only other ability it effects is Flame Shock).

The 10% damage boost to Elemental Blast only benefits its direct damage, it doesn't boost the stats it gives at all. Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst were both buffed and they both benefit from the stats EB gives, so it does indirectly buff EB, but EB stats benefit every single spell, so relatively it isn't a 10% increase in effectiveness for the stats gained.

As such, these buffs are a larger relative increase for UF than they are for EB, and as UF was already slightly ahead before these buffs, it is even more ahead now.

[TheTieThatBinds]

The buffs to Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt (10% too each) equate to 10% more damage from the Unleash Fury talent (as its damage is mostly in those two abilities, the only other ability it effects is Flame Shock).

The 10% damage boost to Elemental Blast only benefits its direct damage, it doesn't boost the stats it gives at all. Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst were both buffed and they both benefit from the stats EB gives, so it does indirectly buff EB, but EB stats benefit every single spell, so relatively it isn't a 10% increase in effectiveness for the stats gained.

As such, these buffs are a larger relative increase for UF than they are for EB, and as UF was already slightly ahead before these buffs, it is even more ahead now.

Not completely true. It is still based on RNG. EB can be better than UF, but UF, statistically speaking, will be higher due to the fact you can get bad RNG and not get Multistrike or haste to pop every time off EB. Thus, its all relative to RNG. I find that I, personally, do better with EB over UF.

[Deleted]

I actually use EotE/EB/EF, and do just fine on fights. At a 638 ilvl, im pulling about 15-18k per boss fight in HM(granted, I've only done 4 fights, and Im also a flamethrower on Brackenspore). There really isn't a DPS change for either for me, as tested on Dummy, specifically a 10% increase in dmg on LB, and 30% on LvB equal out on 550 Multistrike/Crit/Haste that you get every 15 sec.

Im normally putting up a 120% increased damaged FS with EF and UF though whenever I get the chance though.

You are doing fine because the DPS gain from EB to UF is around 200-500 DPS

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Not completely true. It is still based on RNG. EB can be better than UF, but UF, statistically speaking, will be higher due to the fact you can get bad RNG and not get Multistrike or haste to pop every time off EB. Thus, its all relative to RNG. I find that I, personally, do better with EB over UF.

Statistically, UF is better. It's like saying EB can be better, because it can crit everytime. It's not false, but it isn't really relevant

[spicybbq]

The buffs to Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt (10% too each) equate to 10% more damage from the Unleash Fury talent (as its damage is mostly in those two abilities, the only other ability it effects is Flame Shock).

The 10% damage boost to Elemental Blast only benefits its direct damage, it doesn't boost the stats it gives at all. Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst were both buffed and they both benefit from the stats EB gives, so it does indirectly buff EB, but EB stats benefit every single spell, so relatively it isn't a 10% increase in effectiveness for the stats gained.

As such, these buffs are a larger relative increase for UF than they are for EB, and as UF was already slightly ahead before these buffs, it is even more ahead now.

I'm not sure we can draw that conclusion without numbers. They didn't increase the stat gains from EB, but they also didn't increase the percentage boost from UF.

UF boosts some spells by a larger percentage. The EB buff boosts all spells by a smaller percentage (the %DPS increase of the average proc). I agree that the buffs to LB and LvB give a relative boost to UF. That's one plus factor for UF.

Then, we have a plus factor for EB in that its damage was directly buffed 10%. In other words, by armchair logic we have one change benefitting EB, and one change benefitting UF. We need numbers to break the tie and determine the net result of these two changes.

[hidey0shi]

I've ran several simulations. The EM/AS/EotE tier simmed very close to each other (less than 1% difference), with EM being the best option and EotE the worst.
The level 90 tier was a bit further apart, UF still the best, Primal Elementalist the worst, 3% difference.

Keep in mind that this sim is for my character (643), with his current gear and stats, the sim results might be different for yourself.

[TheTieThatBinds]

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Statistically, UF is better. It's like saying EB can be better, because it can crit everytime. It's not false, but it isn't really relevant

Its all relevant. Also, the DPS gain from EB to UF will be less and more, all depending on what stat you get from your EB procs. Averaging that out gets you your actual DPS gain, which is equal. It will depend on the RNG, again. Just like using UF will depend on RNG, albeit, a different type(chance to get a certain stat vs. a chance you get stuff casted on you where you have to run while the UF buff is up). Its all dependant on certain circumstances. Standing still and not moving UF will probably be on top, depending on which buffs you get from EB. EB can do more DPS than UF, but UF will average more DPS since its DPS mechanic isn't based on RNG.

[Sandokai]

I prefer Ancestral Swiftness for base haste and a quick self heal. We are working on mythic Kargath and staying alive is almost everything.

[Deleted]

Not completely true. It is still based on RNG. EB can be better than UF, but UF, statistically speaking, will be higher due to the fact you can get bad RNG and not get Multistrike or haste to pop every time off EB. Thus, its all relative to RNG. I find that I, personally, do better with EB over UF.

If you are talking strictly potential maximum DPS, Unleash Fury is actually still better. If RNGesus decided to lend you his power, and you procced off every single spell, UF would be better because its a flat % boost, whilst from EB if you have 100% proc chance the only stat which would be useful would be Haste, and that haste buff wouldn't be worth the 10% Lava Burst damage once you take into account those millions of Multistrikes.

Obviously, that is never going to happen. You have to go for the statistically most likely option. Same logic applies to EB. If you get lucky and it always gives you crit/multistrike, brilliant. All those times it gives you Mastery and you're a sad panda make up for it. Not only is Unleash Fury mathematically better on patchwerk, its also much more consistent too. The only major downside too it is that it makes Unleash Flame part of your rotation, so you wont have it for movement. However, if you are on a fight with very heavy movement then Primal Elementalist is going to be the best talent for you anyway.

I'm not sure we can draw that conclusion without numbers. They didn't increase the stat gains from EB, but they also didn't increase the percentage boost from UF.

UF boosts some spells by a larger percentage. The EB buff boosts all spells by a smaller percentage (the %DPS increase of the average proc). I agree that the buffs to LB and LvB give a relative boost to UF. That's one plus factor for UF.

Then, we have a plus factor for EB in that its damage was directly buffed 10%. In other words, by armchair logic we have one change benefitting EB, and one change benefitting UF. We need numbers to break the tie and determine the net result of these two changes.

I am using numbers though. You don't need to sim it or anything. For Elemental, Unleash Fury was already simming slightly higher than EB. This round of buffs increased by power of every spell UF effects (except Flame Shock) by 10%. UF has no damage of its own, so that means its effectiveness was buffed by 10% (minus Flame Shock, which is ~4-5% of our damage). Elemental Blast damage was buffed by 10%. Its stats, however, effect all spells, yet only Lightning Bolt and Lava Burst (~60-70% of the damage sources) were buffed by 10%, meaning that its stat bonus was only increased by ~6-7%.

As such, the relative increase to UF is bigger than the relative increase too EB. If UF was already ahead - which it was - then it is even more ahead now.

I prefer Ancestral Swiftness for base haste and a quick self heal. We are working on mythic Kargath and staying alive is almost everything.

Would Elemental Mastery not be better for Kar'gath Mythic. I admit I haven't seen it yet, but I would think that EM for the burn phase would be more useful than one instant heal every minute? If healing is that important, then using Stone Bulwark on cooldown and Healing Stream totem with Rushing Streams is going to do a lot more for your raid than an instant heal every minute.