Argus

[Combatbutler]

Because burning legion destroyed the strongest human nation... or was it Lich King work ?

The legion, since the scourge was the tool they created for exactly this purpose and was almost entirely under their control at that point.

[Aquamonkey]

KJ (1st, who also we just flushed like he is sh*t in toilet)

Using the physical embodiment of the Sunwell...

[sam86]

The legion, since the scourge was the tool they created for exactly this purpose and was almost entirely under their control at that point.

Actually they didn't know the plan that LK was making, they pretty much were jailors/supervisors, Tichondrius even says clearly to Arthas in last mission in Quel'thalas he is here to make sure he does his job right, not do it for him, he didn't plan a thing and he was smartest Dreadlord
The scourge while being a 'tool' was always its own identity, its like consider Taurens don't have culture because they joined the horde

[Combatbutler]

Actually they didn't know the plan that LK was making, they pretty much were jailors/supervisors, Tichondrius even says clearly to Arthas in last mission in Quel'thalas he is here to make sure he does his job right, not do it for him, he didn't plan a thing and he was smartest Dreadlord
The scourge while being a 'tool' was always its own identity, its like consider Taurens don't have culture because they joined the horde

The scourge was still under supervision, if the lich King had the power to rebel against the legion he would have done it immediately, but he had to wait quite some time to make his move, otherwise he would have been destroyed by his supervisors.

[sam86]

The scourge was still under supervision, if the lich King had the power to rebel against the legion he would have done it immediately, but he had to wait quite some time to make his move, otherwise he would have been destroyed by his supervisors.

Lets assume that blood elves left horde and joined alliance, does that make blood elves work, horde or alliance?
Or more clear, lets assume that in last civil war, the horde decided to kick the orcs out of the horde, does that mean anything the orcs did, counted for horde, or for orcs only?
Alliance is unity of race, same for horde, but that doesn't remove the race progression itself, if one day Gnomes leave alliance their invention will be in gnomes name, not alliance, same for scourge, they were acting under supervision from BL, but LK pretty much planned and applied all, scourge work is credited to scourge, not burning legion anymore, specially since scourge and BL became enemies as we saw later

[Combatbutler]

Lets assume that blood elves left horde and joined alliance, does that make blood elves work, horde or alliance?
Or more clear, lets assume that in last civil war, the horde decided to kick the orcs out of the horde, does that mean anything the orcs did, counted for horde, or for orcs only?
Alliance is unity of race, same for horde, but that doesn't remove the race progression itself, if one day Gnomes leave alliance their invention will be in gnomes name, not alliance, same for scourge, they were acting under supervision from BL, but LK pretty much planned and applied all, scourge work is credited to scourge, not burning legion anymore, specially since scourge and BL became enemies as we saw later

Your comparison is lacking, your examples are races that existed prior and on their own, while the scourge itself was created and nurtured by the legion, to be a part of it and weaken Azeroth, without the legion it wouldn't exist. To judge the scourge and its real accomplishments, you should judge it after it no longer was part of the burning legion. Which means after the third war.

[MikeBogina]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Burning_Legion (when did they change the name of the website?)
TBC is officially the 3rd invasion, it was crappy one I agree, but it is still 3rd invasion, why you think I said I don't see them real threat anymore?

4th if you consider Sargeras possessing Medihv and opening the way for the corrupted Horde to come over and both failed miserably.

- - - Updated - - -

The legion, since the scourge was the tool they created for exactly this purpose and was almost entirely under their control at that point.

I remember playing RoC and reading the Arthas Novel, and I remember him destroying Lordaeron before he met Tich(When he was killing Dread Lords on sight)

[sam86]

4th if you consider Sargeras possessing Medihv and opening the way for the corrupted Horde to come over and both failed miserably.
I remember playing RoC and reading the Arthas Novel, and I remember him destroying Lordaeron before he met Tich(When he was killing Dread Lords on sight)

Blizzard officially consider BL tried 3 invasions, none of them count the orcs, 1st was with nelfs, 2nd at RoC, and 3rd at TBC, 1st one cause sunder and was terrifying - even if we never saw it, 2nd caused end of immortality, but in same time we killed forever 3rd most powerful demon in their ranks (or 2nd, since Sargeras is mia), 3rd one we flushed KJ like sh*t in toilet and they failed to make a single impact in entier Azeroth, every invasion fails more than the earlier one, we will invade them surely and pwn them too hard, for the 'most danger out' they fail way too much
TBH all evil are just failure upon failure now

[Combatbutler]

I remember playing RoC and reading the Arthas Novel, and I remember him destroying Lordaeron before he met Tich(When he was killing Dread Lords on sight)

He didn't have to meet him, it didn't matter since they were calling the shots, the army at his command to crush his Kingdom was given to him, by the legion.

[Ciddy]

I'd love to see Argus in game, and I'm sure we will at some point, but I'm not expecting it to happen soon. If we ever visit Argus, we're at the point where we're taking the fight to the Legion. I think that's still a long way down the road.

A CoT instance where we help Velen and the Draenei escape from Argus would be pretty awesome. If Blizzard just wanted to let us see Argus without having to implement the whole story too early, that'd be a good way to do it. All the players could become Draenei for the duration, sort of like how we become Night Elves in Well of Eternity or Humans in Old Hillsbrad.

[DFu4ever]

It would seriously undermine the threat the legion poses should we invade their main HQ.
.

By the time we invade their HQ, we will be the threat the Legion worries about. It sort of feels like we're already ROFLstomping the Iron Horde. They just don't feel like a true threat.

This whole expansion just screams "this is now what happens to you if you fuck with Azeroth".

[Tenjen]

"dont see them as a real threat"

each invasion is a "success" on our side that cost us TERRIBLY each time. While the legions forces havent even been dented. Hell 99% of the demons we kill dont even die.

Decades, even 10,000 years. means nothing to the legion.

Every time they invade, we are lesser for it. What we have remaining gets stronger, but it wont be enough without SOMETHING to help. not when its the legion.

Not seeing something as a real threat is the first and last step to getting slaughtered.

[Airlick]

I still hope we have to abandon Draenor, because the Legion overruns it and we have to evacuate as much allies as possible, before severing this au Draneor from Azeroth to save our hide.

That is actually a great idea.

The troops that set foot on Azeroth were nothing compared to the prior ones, of course it is counted as the third invasion, since they did try to take over the planet, but most of the troops were blood elves loyal to Kael'thas, the Legion had yet to unleash their armies on the world.

Azeroth has not faced a full scale legion invasion in 10.000 years.

Did you play WC3? If you don't count the Third War as Legion's invasion, then you shouldn't count War of the Ancients as a Legion invasion. There may have been less actual demons invading, but Scourge was a massive threat and it was under Legion's control even some time after Hyjal. It was a definitely a full-blown invasion. Remember that BL can't just send millions of demons through the portals, if they could, they would have done so thousands of years ago. They need help from the inside, and opening the portals takes a lot of juice. Even a portal powered by Sunwell wasn't enough for KJ to fit through, and from what I remember, Sunwell is the largest source of power left on Azeroth (correct me if I'm wrong here).

[DFu4ever]

"dont see them as a real threat"

each invasion is a "success" on our side that cost us TERRIBLY each time. While the legions forces havent even been dented. Hell 99% of the demons we kill dont even die.

Decades, even 10,000 years. means nothing to the legion.

Every time they invade, we are lesser for it. What we have remaining gets stronger, but it wont be enough without SOMETHING to help. not when its the legion.

Not seeing something as a real threat is the first and last step to getting slaughtered.

I'm talking about the Iron Horde, who seem like pushovers.

The Legion is a threat, of course, but with each expansion Azeroth's power is growing. We're the special snowflakes of the universe. By the time we are knocking on the Legion's door, we'll be seen as a legitimate threat.

[Traveler Voltin]

That is actually a great idea.



Did you play WC3? If you don't count the Third War as Legion's invasion, then you shouldn't count War of the Ancients as a Legion invasion. There may have been less actual demons invading, but Scourge was a massive threat and it was under Legion's control even some time after Hyjal. It was a definitely a full-blown invasion. Remember that BL can't just send millions of demons through the portals, if they could, they would have done so thousands of years ago. They need help from the inside, and opening the portals takes a lot of juice. Even a portal powered by Sunwell wasn't enough for KJ to fit through, and from what I remember, Sunwell is the largest source of power left on Azeroth (correct me if I'm wrong here).

the legion was using the scourge in WC3, their only forces were dreadlords, manaroth, and Archimonde. the legion had barely any of their true forces during the 3rd war aka WC3

[Kallisto]

Blizzard officially consider BL tried 3 invasions, none of them count the orcs, 1st was with nelfs, 2nd at RoC, and 3rd at TBC, 1st one cause sunder and was terrifying - even if we never saw it, 2nd caused end of immortality, but in same time we killed forever 3rd most powerful demon in their ranks (or 2nd, since Sargeras is mia), 3rd one we flushed KJ like sh*t in toilet and they failed to make a single impact in entier Azeroth, every invasion fails more than the earlier one, we will invade them surely and pwn them too hard, for the 'most danger out' they fail way too much
TBH all evil are just failure upon failure now

Lets disregard the first invasion right now and head straight for the second.

The only reason the legion lost was because of betrayal from within. Arthas who was supposed to be working for them via the scurge told Illidan how to defeat an important part of the legion's leadership. That in turn stopped the reinforcements reaching Archimonde giving the Humans, orcs and Night Elves enough time to make their plans and get the victory at Hyjal. If Ner'zhul and Arthas didn't plan their own betrayals (which was over looked by KJ arrogance.) then there would have been no chance for Azeroth's victory.

This was still a half arsed attack on Azeroth even then. Yes they had Archimonde but it still wasn't even the full strength of the legion, on the eastern side of the world you basically have everything north of Thandol'span destroyed outside of Gilneas who would have fallen if the Legion/Scurge really wanted to take. Even then the rest of the Eastern lands would not have held while the scurge grew, more demons could have flooded into Azeroth to the point that essentially there was nothing left, not even Stormwind. It was bad planning that cost them. And the legion learns.

As for KJ, we the players did very little but distract a unpowered KJ while those around us did the real work of forcing the portal created by the Sunwell to close. His forces were few and we were able to strike before they gained any real strength. The biggest legion attack on Azeroth was the first invasion, and now they are stronger than then. They have grown larger, yes they have lost Mannoroth and Archimonde but they still have more numbers, more people on host planets willing to join.

[Stormspark]

It would seriously undermine the threat the legion poses should we invade their main HQ.


Stop speculating about lore with "it would be cool if..." mindset. That brought us Warlords of Draenor.

We don't know for a fact that it is their main HQ. All we know is it was the Eredar homeworld before Sargeras turned them into Man'ari. It COULD be their HQ. It could also be just another Legion outpost. Or it could've been destroyed. Or it could've just been abandoned. We don't know.

[Aquamonkey]

We don't know for a fact that it is their main HQ. All we know is it was the Eredar homeworld before Sargeras turned them into Man'ari. It COULD be their HQ. It could also be just another Legion outpost. Or it could've been destroyed. Or it could've just been abandoned. We don't know.

On Argus - the former homeworld of the draenei, now the stronghold of the Burning Legion - Azzakel waits, poised for a servant of the Legion to open a portal to one of the countless worlds they seek to invade. (Game Guide)

Argus is where the vanguard of the Legion are stationed and wait on standby to invade worlds. It's also called "the demon homeworld" (Claws of Argus).

The eredar were the first sapient race to join the Legion. They were egotistical enough to dictate that their language become the standard for all future intelligent races that join. Why wouldn't they make Argus their HQ?

[Kallisto]

Also lets look at the blue post. Especially these words "now the stronghold of the Burning Legion."

See how it says THE stronghold. Not "A Stronghold.". This itself puts Argus as the number 1 base, the HQ. Not just some stronghold they can go to and come back from. Also during WoTA it was where Sargeras was going to enter Azeroth from (Yes I know it was 10k years ago, but that is nothing for the Burning Legion."

[Wildmoon]

Well not counting sargeras we had:
Archimonde as possible No1 or No2
KJ as No2 or No1
Tichondrius who was clearly above other dreadlords (even if they seemed to have council-esque organization in w3 cinematics) and who, judging from his tone, was under mannoroth in rank.
Add to that never mentioned leaders of shivarra and marg..ganrng...well the technology demons guys and you may or may not have 2 possible guys above mannoroth.
Other than that i fail too see who could be above him, unless of course there is another branch of legion that was never seen before.

From their tone in WC3, Tichondrius was never under Mannoroth. He even mocked Mannoroth. Also, the scourge would have been destryoed by Illidan if not for Malfurion.