6.2 Retribution Theorycraft & Discussion

[Deleted]

/rant
One pull can't prove anything,...
/endofrant

Yes! Yes! Keep the hate flowing through you!

[Reghame]

its possibly because on a fight where you are progressing and learning a fight, having to deal with another very punishing mechanic (seraphim line ups) might be something you dont even want to consider dealing with when it can be shown that FV can be equal to or greater than seraphim on some if not all fights just because of it's nature.

We also could contribute this to what a player has on gear as well because some players might find better results with FV over seraphim with gear levels and such and such.

of course, in a perfect world and a very stacked ring and YOU being able to dictate when YOU Want to use it, seraphim can be like what? 4k or so ahead of FV? if your in a guild like mine and with gear like mine, aka a weapon that is VERY much higher than the rest of my gear and we use rings to cheese some mechanics like to blow up a certain add aka not going to live up very well with static CDs without delaying them, i will choose FV over seraphim for a majority of fights in HFC. sure seraphim on a lot of them on average might do more than FV. but for me, having to lead, while learning a new boss, while trying to maximize a not as good ring line up with my own cooldowns already make things like sera not a good talent for me.

BTW, stop ragging on people saying FV works for them guys, if it works for them it works. if empowered seals works for them it works. if seraphim works for them it works. its mostly a play style thing that is not only up to the player but the raid environment and guild these people are in. sometimes their rets are not allowed to tunnel vision and do whatever they want with everything like some of these rankadins. who gives a shit? if we kill mystic bosses we kill them ( yes mystic, its like 100 times harder than mythic so my one tardo wikipedia of a hunter in my guild says) just slay bosses to the best you can. if you tried multiple times to try a talent on a boss and its not working, dont hamper progression till you can get it right. do something that will slay the boss then and there and move on. ]


End of MY rant on this whole talent debauchery. BTW all these 6.2.2 patch w/e notes.... wheres the ret boofs?

[Deleted]

You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times.
How many posts do I need? 10? :O

http://imgur.com/DCq2nvv,2z2j2B1,zjsBpkG,T3LuFRL + http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ecure/advanced

Like previously said, if I were able to decide when to use the ring (aka mostly super bad for everyone else), then maybe I would consider using sera. Every other scenario is definitely a no no situation for that talent. But that's just how I play. I simply wanted to show you can totally do decent (or even better, given the circumstances) single target even with FV.

[ThunSaren]

Seems like i stirred this not the way i intended it to be, and thus i now apologise for sounding harsher than I intended, im fine with whatever people play, and kill stuff with, (btw Questcure, gz on the #1 ) But what i wanted to get out here, is that FV vs Sera drama will probably go on forever, sims show the POSSIBLE ( which in a real world might aswell happen, uhmm, never) advantages in an all-perfect world, but many pages back peaple have said that FV is the talent you want during progression, and is very much on par later on aswell, i don't think it simply belongs in theorycrafting thread, since theres not enough data, and ''i think i might be like that on most other occasions'' doesn't help either. While im glad you showed us the amazing performance, and possibilities of FV, it was known way before and spoken over many pages back, it does not contribute to this thread they way i feel its intended to. I come here from time to time to see if any new things have come up, and see more of this ' it worked so 1 time, must be good' (which wasnt the case here, and thus i again am sorry for my response) it makes me bit mad :/ Hope this resolves the matter with this case, and i can be looked upon as a nice dude rather than a rantadin

[Redblade]

But what i wanted to get out here, is that FV vs Sera drama will probably go on forever

This is because people talk about different things without realizing it.

Player A says X seems to be better than Y when he means X seems to be better than Y in practice with my raids execution.

Player B then defends Y by saying Y is better for a fact when he means that we know it's a fact that Y is better than X in a vacuum.

[Sarenas]

Can't we all just agree on:
1. Seraphim and FV is pretty equivalent in terms of dps
2. Some people prefer Sera, some people prefer FV
3. Do your own testing

And we can go back to being friends, and keep up the war against BlizzInc

[Ryuji]

Can't we all just agree on:
1. Seraphim and FV is pretty equivalent in terms of dps
2. Some people prefer Sera, some people prefer FV
3. Do your own testing

And we can go back to being friends, and keep up the war against BlizzInc

Now throw Emp. Seals into the discussion! Actually I prefer Emp. Seals over Seraphim, unless I don't have to move a whole lot during a fight. There's something about Sera that just feels...meh.

[statphantom]

Now throw Emp. Seals into the discussion! Actually I prefer Emp. Seals over Seraphim, unless I don't have to move a whole lot during a fight. There's something about Sera that just feels...meh.

sera to me feels like a really STRICT Inquisition mechanic, which is why I don't like it as I never liked inquision, but that being said I still use it on iron reaver and zakuun fights.

[ThePants999]

Is there a way to tweak SimC to model different Seraphim uptimes?

Setting player skill to "elite" achieves about a 48% Seraphim uptime, while setting it one notch down ("good") achieves about a 30% uptime. Er, lol? Unsurprisingly, "elite" puts Seraphim some way ahead of FV for me, while "good" puts it a mile behind. In the real world, though, I'm not elite - I raid lead and pay a lot of attention to what everyone else is doing, which takes my eye off the DPS ball sometimes. But I'm not as bad as 30% either! I averaged about 43% last time I gave Seraphim a go. Is there any way to tweak the "player skill" parameters in SimC to model that? Would love to know whether I should be switching.

[Ryethe]

You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times.
How many posts do I need? 10? :O

http://imgur.com/DCq2nvv,2z2j2B1,zjsBpkG,T3LuFRL + http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ecure/advanced

Like previously said, if I were able to decide when to use the ring (aka mostly super bad for everyone else), then maybe I would consider using sera. Every other scenario is definitely a no no situation for that talent. But that's just how I play. I simply wanted to show you can totally do decent (or even better, given the circumstances) single target even with FV.

To really break this down we'd need your breakdowns and buff uptimes.

[Solsacra]

Is there a way to tweak SimC to model different Seraphim uptimes?

Setting player skill to "elite" achieves about a 48% Seraphim uptime, while setting it one notch down ("good") achieves about a 30% uptime. Er, lol? Unsurprisingly, "elite" puts Seraphim some way ahead of FV for me, while "good" puts it a mile behind. In the real world, though, I'm not elite - I raid lead and pay a lot of attention to what everyone else is doing, which takes my eye off the DPS ball sometimes. But I'm not as bad as 30% either! I averaged about 43% last time I gave Seraphim a go. Is there any way to tweak the "player skill" parameters in SimC to model that? Would love to know whether I should be switching.

Unfortunately, there isn't anything that can be done to adjust that, not simply anyway. The problem lies with how I've written the actions. Which is simply an expenditure lockout scaling linearly with time relative to current holy power levels, and how less 'skillful' players may make mistakes, like say fat fingering judgment over crusader strike or Templars verdict over Seraphim. My gut feeling is that even with 40% uptime, seraphim is superior.

As for the Seraphim Vs FV debate, I feel like we've beaten this one to death, the numbers don't lie. You do not need a perfect patchwerk fight for Sera to be superior, or a cleave fight for FV to be better. The raw power and flexibility of Seraphim throws it to prominence, in all situations. I even threw together a spreadsheet comparing and breaking down the two for a number of situations. The only thing that makes FV 'useful' is its relatively brain dead playstyle.

[Cruciata]

You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times.
How many posts do I need? 10? :O

http://imgur.com/DCq2nvv,2z2j2B1,zjsBpkG,T3LuFRL + http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ecure/advanced

Like previously said, if I were able to decide when to use the ring (aka mostly super bad for everyone else), then maybe I would consider using sera. Every other scenario is definitely a no no situation for that talent. But that's just how I play. I simply wanted to show you can totally do decent (or even better, given the circumstances) single target even with FV.

I hope you're capable of a rank 1 parse with a 727 ilvl.

Not to take into account the kill time.

[statphantom]

Unfortunately, there isn't anything that can be done to adjust that, not simply anyway. The problem lies with how I've written the actions. Which is simply an expenditure lockout scaling linearly with time relative to current holy power levels, and how less 'skillful' players may make mistakes, like say fat fingering judgment over crusader strike or Templars verdict over Seraphim. My gut feeling is that even with 40% uptime, seraphim is superior.

As for the Seraphim Vs FV debate, I feel like we've beaten this one to death, the numbers don't lie. You do not need a perfect patchwerk fight for Sera to be superior, or a cleave fight for FV to be better. The raw power and flexibility of Seraphim throws it to prominence, in all situations. I even threw together a spreadsheet comparing and breaking down the two for a number of situations. The only thing that makes FV 'useful' is its relatively brain dead playstyle.

is that only when lining it up perfectly with the ring? i find on a lot of fights where you cant line sera up with ring FV pulls ahead for me, what do you think of sera not lined with ring over using fv

[Bolt66]

As for the Seraphim Vs FV debate, I feel like we've beaten this one to death, the numbers don't lie. You do not need a perfect patchwerk fight for Sera to be superior, or a cleave fight for FV to be better. The raw power and flexibility of Seraphim throws it to prominence, in all situations. I even threw together a spreadsheet comparing and breaking down the two for a number of situations. The only thing that makes FV 'useful' is its relatively brain dead playstyle.

First off, thanks for all the number crunching Sol.
I've been really debating the seraphim vs FV myself because I don't feel like I'm getting more when I use Seraphim (which is probably more me than the talent) and even started reading this thread from 6.2 forward to see if I can figure things out better but maybe this will be quicker.

Is there a certain ilvl or gear set that enforces Seraphim's dominance?
I've just started raiding again and did a sim on my gear. It's saying 51,693 with Seraphim and 50,436 with FV. This is on patchwork fights with 'Elite' player skill (I have >45% uptime on seraphim unless I die or have to take care of a mechanic). As soon as I knock the skill down to 'Good', seraphim falls to 34k and FV to 44k.
I also remember reading a post by you that said that each time you mess up seraphim a little bit, it's equivalent to about a 2.5% dps hit which would mean 1 mistake would put seraphim equal to FV and any more would make it worse for my current gear.

Should I just stick with FV until my sim is showing Seraphim ahead of FV by a larger margin? Because right now I'm thinking that FV would give me better results.
Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Tbolt/advanced
Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../latest#boss=0

[Solsacra]

First off, thanks for all the number crunching Sol.
I've been really debating the seraphim vs FV myself because I don't feel like I'm getting more when I use Seraphim (which is probably more me than the talent) and even started reading this thread from 6.2 forward to see if I can figure things out better but maybe this will be quicker.

Is there a certain ilvl or gear set that enforces Seraphim's dominance?
I've just started raiding again and did a sim on my gear. It's saying 51,693 with Seraphim and 50,436 with FV. This is on patchwork fights with 'Elite' player skill (I have >45% uptime on seraphim unless I die or have to take care of a mechanic). As soon as I knock the skill down to 'Good', seraphim falls to 34k and FV to 44k.
I also remember reading a post by you that said that each time you mess up seraphim a little bit, it's equivalent to about a 2.5% dps hit which would mean 1 mistake would put seraphim equal to FV and any more would make it worse for my current gear.

Should I just stick with FV until my sim is showing Seraphim ahead of FV by a larger margin? Because right now I'm thinking that FV would give me better results.
Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Tbolt/advanced
Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../latest#boss=0

Seraphim quickly jumps ahead of FV when Libram of Vindication and Empty Drinking Horn are picked up. In your current gear, Seraphim should, as the simulation indicates, remain superior. As for the 2.5% figure; i believe that was in reference to losing a full seraphim usage over the course of a fight (don't quote me on it, it's been awhile). using Seraphim on CD, or even delaying it for a more opportune time, such as gorefiend feasts, iskar adds, xhul'horac imp waves, zakuun seeds etc etc Is objectively not a loss, but an element of control. Control is far more important- the ability to dictate when that damage is dealt provides additional benefits that cannot be easily quantified in a simulation. This is also why Final Verdict quickly loses ground in these scenarios, when you cant use it, that damage is lost. If Seraphim is delayed, the damage it provides is merely postponed.

[Bolt66]

Seraphim quickly jumps ahead of FV when Libram of Vindication and Empty Drinking Horn are picked up. In your current gear, Seraphim should, as the simulation indicates, remain superior. As for the 2.5% figure; i believe that was in reference to losing a full seraphim usage over the course of a fight (don't quote me on it, it's been awhile). using Seraphim on CD, or even delaying it for a more opportune time, such as gorefiend feasts, iskar adds, xhul'horac imp waves, zakuun seeds etc etc Is objectively not a loss, but an element of control. Control is far more important- the ability to dictate when that damage is dealt provides additional benefits that cannot be easily quantified in a simulation. This is also why Final Verdict quickly loses ground in these scenarios, when you cant use it, that damage is lost. If Seraphim is delayed, the damage it provides is merely postponed.

Thank you for the clarification. Your advice is very much appreciated!

[ThePants999]

Unfortunately, there isn't anything that can be done to adjust that, not simply anyway. The problem lies with how I've written the actions. Which is simply an expenditure lockout scaling linearly with time relative to current holy power levels, and how less 'skillful' players may make mistakes, like say fat fingering judgment over crusader strike or Templars verdict over Seraphim. My gut feeling is that even with 40% uptime, seraphim is superior.

As for the Seraphim Vs FV debate, I feel like we've beaten this one to death, the numbers don't lie. You do not need a perfect patchwerk fight for Sera to be superior, or a cleave fight for FV to be better. The raw power and flexibility of Seraphim throws it to prominence, in all situations. I even threw together a spreadsheet comparing and breaking down the two for a number of situations. The only thing that makes FV 'useful' is its relatively brain dead playstyle.

Thanks. It's the brain dead playstyle that attracts me to FV - while Sera might be unquestionably better for DPS, as a RL of a still-trying-to-get-better team, I place significant value on the extra mental cycles that FV gives me to look for people mishandling mechanics and what have you :-) So I was hoping to get a feel for exactly what I'm trading for those cycles.

Your simulation of skill is accurate from my perspective - the mistakes you describe are exactly the ones I make. I was just hoping there was some setting I could tweak for how often the sim makes them, as I make them more often than "elite", but less often than "good". But if there isn't, then fair enough - perhaps I'll simply try it again and see. Or perhaps I'll use FV on progression and Sera on farm, when I can spare the attention.

[Reghame]

only thing you have to do to quantify whether or not sera will not be a loss over FV is how many times you have to delay it or how many times it cant line up with ring to see it's value drop.

one thing about seraphim is that with the talent, all your damage goes into it. only time you LOSE damage is when you loser seraphim time over the course of a fight or when you cant dps while it's up so what solcra said about control is true.

what he somewhat skated about though is that if your constantly having to delay seraphim to where you lose 1-2-3 ect ect so amounts of seraphim, you can quickly start losing damage. misplaying the talent and using it in a wrong spot like say using it right before seeds then getting seeded will destroy your damage. or not having it up for the first 10 seconds of wings will do that. or not for ring.

This is possibly why people dont like seraphim, sure it just might be equal to or greater than FV in some of those cases but its not fun having to say whelp my damage just went to shit because i was not allowed to use X ability a minute ago and now i have to wait AGAIN to use it for so and so. or how about with said ring you could plead with your guild to wait a couple more seconds and it gets used anyway because so and so value meaning you then either have to further plan ahead ( not a bad thing just a really hard thing to do when your constantly doing it) or just suck it up and lose a big number of damage.

FV is just if you cant use it, you cant use it. your losses are the same at the end of the day and you really have much less to worry about at the end of the day. and im not justifying FV by saying you dont lose anything (because you do. downtime is downtime no matter what you say) only thing is if you have continued delays on seraphim and a scenario where the ring is hardly lined up with seraphim if at all sometimes then it's large values over FV might be pushing it.

same can be said about empowered seals, but honestly i dont like that talent in the least, i hate empty GCDs.


if i had a TLDR i would honestly just circle back to why the hell is the ring a raid cooldown? we are not the only spec that has this issue ATM and im sure they are just as pissed about it as we are.

[statphantom]

I am currently progressing on mythic kormrok and am tossing up between FV and seraphim, since we delay ring till after first leap sera lines up with ring however I do lose damage on hands, what is the best one to use? at a toss up here. (using H LoV and N EDH).

[hjial]

Are you having troubles getting the hands down fast enough? Then go for FV, if killing the hands quickly is not an issue go for Seraphim.