6.2 Retribution Theorycraft & Discussion

[statphantom]

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? With my personal stat weights Hellrender is clearly better than Maul when using FV and Maul is better when using Sera. I would also assume that Maul's value while using Sera depends heavily on how much haste you have elsewhere on your gear, since haste value has fairly large peaks and valleys depending on fitting more abilities inside CDs. Certainly not as clear cut to me as you make it sound.

its not clear cut but if you are following mastery / haste to 900 then stacking mastery with multi / crit and ignoring haste and vers it is

[Sedativ]

Sorry but the problem with this post is it gives no response to HFC mechanics, right now FV NEVER beats Sera on some fights such as zakuul and rever, and sera nearly always beats FV on majority of the fights, up to about iskar type adds fight which is where FV pulls ahead, and even then once you have 4 piece and legendary ring, sera is better on nearlly all fights even zhul and assult.

Sera is a clear winner if you can get it to line up with ring, but on so many fights we're using ring on pull and FV takes much greater advantage of that than sera does. Hard to convince the raid to wait 8-10 seconds before using ring when everyones popping things on pull.

[Sacricarl]

I find FV is easier to faceroll than sera. Also rets seem to be in a good spot after this ring came out. I'm liking it!

[Cruciata]

Sera is a clear winner if you can get it to line up with ring, but on so many fights we're using ring on pull and FV takes much greater advantage of that than sera does. Hard to convince the raid to wait 8-10 seconds before using ring when everyones popping things on pull.

Our raid pops ring 3~ GCDs into the pull. Enough time to get to 4HP(Blood Elf). Lines up pretty well for me.

[Darkchickens]

Not true. I haven't gone at length with all the possible combinations, but unless simcraft is totally wrong: If your weapon is kinda lagging behind the rest of your gear (5-10 ilvls), then FV will beat Sera

I picked up a whopping 5 ilvl upgrade on my weapon tonight, it will be interesting to see how much ground LOV and Sera make up with a 5 ilvl weapoon increase

For me personally, with an avg ilvl of 707 and a 715 weapon seraphim is about 5k ahead on ST and even more on AOE for me. Using vial + HC EDH.

[Halkkirgamed]

Bump? This is kinda dead

[Rawrzillasor]

For me personally, with an avg ilvl of 707 and a 715 weapon seraphim is about 5k ahead on ST and even more on AOE for me. Using vial + HC EDH.

Same. I think with the introduction of the ring vial jumps fairly high on the trinket list since it will be macroed to ring all the time anyway.

[statphantom]

it's a little confusing as to why sera is better on AoE then FV with the ring but you got to remember this, a FV hit doubles the damage of DS, then you hit DS, but with sera you hit DS, and then DS again which is twice the damage but extra damage boosted by sera. FV just adds one since FV hit of damage which is usually better but with seras boost boosting so much with ring it deals more then a single FV hit of damage.

[hjial]

Is holy avenger still not viable with the ring? It's a shared CD with the ring, adds increased burst and allows us to pop Seraphim faster to match the ring.

[Rawrzillasor]

Is holy avenger still not viable with the ring? It's a shared CD with the ring, adds increased burst and allows us to pop Seraphim faster to match the ring.

Adds increased burst is possibly true but then we are spaghetti noodles after 18 seconds for another two minutes where as the extra uptime on sw basically gives us another full(30secs) wings over the course of the fight iin some cases even mmore.

Sorry for typos, I'm on my phone and its being dumb

[Monoroth]

it's a little confusing as to why sera is better on AoE then FV with the ring but you got to remember this, a FV hit doubles the damage of DS, then you hit DS, but with sera you hit DS, and then DS again which is twice the damage but extra damage boosted by sera. FV just adds one since FV hit of damage which is usually better but with seras boost boosting so much with ring it deals more then a single FV hit of damage.

It's pretty simple, to remove any confusion for incoming adds you'll pool holy power in either case so the cost of Seraphim doesn't matter.

From mehanical point of view.

The main difference is that when you AoE with FV you need to use FV first (Single Target spell) and then build holy power for DS ( which is doing double the damage). Then the usage of FV is justifed as the end result is the same as casting 2 DS in a row. But problem still remains that it takes quite some time before you start to AoE.

For Seraphim on other hand, your AoE rotation is basically DS spamm. When Seraphim is up everything you do gets increased damage (HoPo generators benefit from this alot, especially CS/HoW) compared to FV where only TV gets benefit. Also you do AoE faster with Seraphim CS>Judge>Exo>CS>DS compared to FV CS>Judge>Exo>CS>FV>Judge>CS>DS.

What I'm getting at is you have a long build up for AoE with FV, you could argue same for Seraphim but once Sera is up you don't need to build hopo again to use next DS.

The ring is extra addition that pushes Seraphim ahead, as mentioned before Seraphim buffs everything from seals to auto attacks to dot damage you do compared to FV which only buffs 2 spells , on top of that you have combination of Sera + ring, ring which buffs everything you do once again. If you add that up you get 2 x 15 sec buffs that buff your whole Ret toolkit, compared to FV + Ring where only ring buffs all of your abilitys and FV which buffs only 2 spells.

I hope this clears up confusion. Hopefully I didn't explain it to confusing.

[statphantom]

It's pretty simple, to remove any confusion for incoming adds you'll pool holy power in either case so the cost of Seraphim doesn't matter.

From mehanical point of view.

The main difference is that when you AoE with FV you need to use FV first (Single Target spell) and then build holy power for DS ( which is doing double the damage). Then the usage of FV is justifed as the end result is the same as casting 2 DS in a row. But problem still remains that it takes quite some time before you start to AoE.

For Seraphim on other hand, your AoE rotation is basically DS spamm. When Seraphim is up everything you do gets increased damage (HoPo generators benefit from this alot, especially CS/HoW) compared to FV where only TV gets benefit. Also you do AoE faster with Seraphim CS>Judge>Exo>CS>DS compared to FV CS>Judge>Exo>CS>FV>Judge>CS>DS.

What I'm getting at is you have a long build up for AoE with FV, you could argue same for Seraphim but once Sera is up you don't need to build hopo again to use next DS.

The ring is extra addition that pushes Seraphim ahead, as mentioned before Seraphim buffs everything from seals to auto attacks to dot damage you do compared to FV which only buffs 2 spells , on top of that you have combination of Sera + ring, ring which buffs everything you do once again. If you add that up you get 2 x 15 sec buffs that buff your whole Ret toolkit, compared to FV + Ring where only ring buffs all of your abilitys and FV which buffs only 2 spells.

I hope this clears up confusion. Hopefully I didn't explain it to confusing.

however on fights with temp adds you are using FV for single target so you will have the FV buff up at nearlly all times ready for adds and ring etc so a little different there.

[Deleted]

I'm abit confused, the new changelog places UH above DC in both trinket ranking and dps overall. However in the next section there are 6/7 fights with DC + EDH.

Which is it?

Is UH the trinket to go for progress in these cleave/aoe fights with prio targets and DC only good for meter padding?

[statphantom]

I'm abit confused, the new changelog places UH above DC in both trinket ranking and dps overall. However in the next section there are 6/7 fights with DC + EDH.

Which is it?

Is UH the trinket to go for progress in these cleave/aoe fights with prio targets and DC only good for meter padding?

UH is better then DC in all places including padding, it hasn't been updated yet.

- - - Updated - - -

is there a list anywhere to say what talents on what HFC fights with ring and 4pc? cant find anything anywhere

[parkerlewis]

is there a list anywhere to say what talents on what HFC fights with ring and 4pc? cant find anything anywhere

I haven't been able to find this either. I was previously playing Frost DK and Skullflower had a boss-by-boss guide with talent recommendations and some quick tips on making the best of mechanics; I'd really appreciate something like that for Ret.

[Deleted]

Bump? This is kinda dead

yeah, it look like it.

[Deleted]

Hello,

I wanted to try how Sera works for ST fights so yesterday I decided to try it out and see what happens. Compared to the other ret paladin in the guild (he was playing SW/FV also same iLvl as me). So with me playing Hc hellrender,Hc EDH,Hc DC,leg ring, 4p t18 I've managed to parse 99% on Tyrant HC (rank 19) with 98.1k dps. Just to give you a rough comparison of talent usage on those kind of fights, the other paladin used HC LoV + HC EDH he managed to do 84k deeps so it's a huge difference between talents when u have the leg ring.
My stats (unbuffed):
Mastery: 56.20%
Crit: 17.26%
Haste: 9.10%
Multistrike: 17.95%

[statphantom]

Hello,

I wanted to try how Sera works for ST fights so yesterday I decided to try it out and see what happens. Compared to the other ret paladin in the guild (he was playing SW/FV also same iLvl as me). So with me playing Hc hellrender,Hc EDH,Hc DC,leg ring, 4p t18 I've managed to parse 99% on Tyrant HC (rank 19) with 98.1k dps. Just to give you a rough comparison of talent usage on those kind of fights, the other paladin used HC LoV + HC EDH he managed to do 84k deeps so it's a huge difference between talents when u have the leg ring.
My stats (unbuffed):
Mastery: 56.20%
Crit: 17.26%
Haste: 9.10%
Multistrike: 17.95%

I take it you use DC cause you had nothing else? UH and LoV would have increased even further

[Zulumaki]

Not to sound like a dick, but you dont have to go through 108 pages to find some basic answers to help you along, just the first. Literally a priority list a mile long as well as talent combinations to help. I wish you all the best in your Ret endeavors, but at least read through the OP as I think you'll find people around here considerably more helpful when you educated yourself a bit first.

you are not sounding like a dick, i rather ffel like a dick just to ask that quickly. It was just because i was reading about 3 guides with a little bit of different variations and no one sounded about right. (icy veins, noxxic, and a side about to be closed on friday, i forgot the name).
In one of the guides they stated MS is even better than Mastery and they wont go deep in FV/Seraphim with decent amount of gear.
I Simcraftet alot and found out that FV/Seraph with my item has a dps differen for about 200-300 so not worth going for it now since i will definitly fuck sera up for a bit. Aswell i read the trinket advice and iam quite lucky now. (tbh i thought the guide was maybe outdated when i was reading the FV rotation with 4set t17) so mybad. and thanks

[Deleted]

I take it you use DC cause you had nothing else? UH and LoV would have increased even further

Don't have UH/LoV yet, but I assume UH > DC on cleave/aoe fights so looking forward to do more dps