Mythic Butcher : Is tanking him in the water considered an exploit?

[Qualia]

^ The thing is, it pretty much trivialize to the point of (almost) removing the add soaking aspect of the fight without having to do anything special. Of course, there are better places to tank him other than center of his "room" - i.e: at the wall (don't know if anything changed on Live, haven't reached him yet, but tanking at the wall was the easier method as adds only come from one side on Beta when we tested him). However, you'd still having to do the fights and all its mechanic normally (just easier than center). Tanking him at the pool like in the vid? Nope, hence they will likely fix that.

[Deleted]

If anything they might remove whatever is blocking the adds so they get a clear line towards the boss, but that could take a while.

[Instructor Soki]

except that saronite bombs weren't part of the encounter. this is.

They were a part of EVERY encounter.
The alternative was for them to cut their DPS due to Blizzard's mistake.

[Slatch]

It looks like clever use of space to me. However if this trivializes (in Blizzard's opinion) the encounter then expect a fix to be implemented. No bugs involved, no outside items used, no special buffing or debuffing that's not intended, so not banable. If Blizzard made a mistake with making the room they will come to a decision sometime. Either a fight change or they will let it go. In the past we have seen things go either way.

[Deleted]

Pretty sure it's something along the lines of Ragnaros's p4. Not the way they designed the fight but hey whatever, now that it's commonplace and isn't also an over the top exploit - might as well keep it.

[Jestah]

This is nothing more than simply moving a boss for better positioning.

If this were a encounter were it was not their intent for this movement, than they would have made a cloud of smoke that blocks off us players from moving into like they have done in the past for other encounters.

[Raiju]

This is nothing more than simply moving a boss for better positioning.

If this were a encounter were it was not their intent for this movement, than they would have made a cloud of smoke that blocks off us players from moving into like they have done in the past for other encounters.

Assuming they had thought of this, which they probably hadn't (especially given the first few guilds seemed to all tank it on the spot)

[Jestah]

Assuming they had thought of this, which they probably hadn't (especially given the first few guilds seemed to all tank it on the spot)

When I used to raid in BC. My guild never tanked a boss in the same spot 80% of the time. Mother Sharaz was tanked at the door going to Counsel. Illidan was bounced back and forth across his area. Counsel was tanked all over the place. Rogue bottom left, paladin bottom right. Mage top left and Priest top right. Bloodboil Orc was tanked south of his pull spot into the right water. Gorefiend was on the stairs from his pull. My point is, if there's room to move a boss. People will do it, it's better for positioning.

Also to note, there's not a rule by Blizzard that we must "Tank On Spot" Please show me where this information is. I'd love to read it.

[adamzz]

ITT: People that think moving the boss is an exploit.

[Deleted]

ITT: People that think moving the boss is an exploit.

You should really browse up on your early catalysm release raid encounters back when people really exploited "moving the boss" to trivil. When you move the boss and it directly defeats a main point of the fight it is an exploit, end of story.

I foresee Blizzard adding a 1% stacking buff per mob that reaches the boss, so this "tactic" becomes pointless.

[adamzz]

You should really browse up on your early catalysm release raid encounters back when people really exploited "moving the boss" to trivil. When you move the boss and it directly defeats a main point of the fight it is an exploit, end of story.

I foresee Blizzard adding a 1% stacking buff per mob that reaches the boss, so this "tactic" becomes pointless.

Blizzard did not punish any guild for moving a boss in early Cataclysm, nor did they ever say that moving a boss was an exploit.

Even if it does trivialize the fight it is not an exploit, Blizzard might hotfix it so that it's not possible to do anymore but that still doesn't make it an exploit.

[Deleted]

More like tanking Twin Val'kyr in the door in ToC and no one got banned for that.

[Dracodraco]

Blizzard did not punish any guild for moving a boss in early Cataclysm, nor did they ever say that moving a boss was an exploit.

Even if it does trivialize the fight it is not an exploit, Blizzard might hotfix it so that it's not possible to do anymore but that still doesn't make it an exploit.

Punish, no. Fix, yes. Off the top of my head -

Magmaw was fixed so you could no longer kite the adds down and up the stairs, thus rendering the dps requirement (and dealing with the fire they kept spawning)much easier. They fixed it by making them slightly faster, making them only spawn fire when they spawned, and giving them less HP (?).

Atramedes had about six different exploits, but they were only done because he was literally impossible to kill without using them, and everytime Blizz tried to "fix" the encounter, they ended up making something else a shitton harder to deal with, returning it to "yea, not gonna happen" - to start with he had so much HP that even with the entire raid singletarget-burning him, the encounter took 12 minutes (and in heroic, you'd max have the gongs available for ~7-8 minutes, even if you played perfectly and never used one in the air phase). People found a way to spawn infinite gongs and chain-stun him forever. No punishments.

Hp was lowered slightly, you now had enough gongs to do him if you never used one in air phase. People tanked him in the doorway so that they could use the giant ring around Nef's arena outside to kite fire.

HP on him was lowered again, but discs speed up to go so fast that they couldn't be dodged, and people couldn't survive. People tanked him in the doorway again, so discs would bounce off.

Doorway was closed off, people started tanking him behind his spawn to limit the amount of discs.

Discs were finally slowed down, and the encounter became something you could actually kill.

Nothing was ever punished to my knowledge, but we're talking about an encounter that couldn't be killed without use of the exploits.

on Al'akir, Paragon used the platforms to make P1 easier - no punishment, but a fix was done.


Using the enviroment against Cho'gall was never fixed - tanking him on the throne in the last phase forced all the small tentacles to spawn in a neat clump that could be AOE'd down, versus out in the open where they'd spawn all over and need singletargetting down. This is the thing that closest resemble Butcher's situation, I guess.

Am I forgetting any?

[adamzz]

Punish, no. Fix, yes. Off the top of my head -

Magmaw was fixed so you could no longer kite the adds down and up the stairs, thus rendering the dps requirement (and dealing with the fire they kept spawning)much easier. They fixed it by making them slightly faster, making them only spawn fire when they spawned, and giving them less HP (?).

Atramedes had about six different exploits, but they were only done because he was literally impossible to kill without using them, and everytime Blizz tried to "fix" the encounter, they ended up making something else a shitton harder to deal with, returning it to "yea, not gonna happen" - to start with he had so much HP that even with the entire raid singletarget-burning him, the encounter took 12 minutes (and in heroic, you'd max have the gongs available for ~7-8 minutes, even if you played perfectly and never used one in the air phase). People found a way to spawn infinite gongs and chain-stun him forever. No punishments.

Hp was lowered slightly, you now had enough gongs to do him if you never used one in air phase. People tanked him in the doorway so that they could use the giant ring around Nef's arena outside to kite fire.

HP on him was lowered again, but discs speed up to go so fast that they couldn't be dodged, and people couldn't survive. People tanked him in the doorway again, so discs would bounce off.

Doorway was closed off, people started tanking him behind his spawn to limit the amount of discs.

Discs were finally slowed down, and the encounter became something you could actually kill.

Nothing was ever punished to my knowledge, but we're talking about an encounter that couldn't be killed without use of the exploits.

on Al'akir, Paragon used the platforms to make P1 easier - no punishment, but a fix was done.


Using the enviroment against Cho'gall was never fixed - tanking him on the throne in the last phase forced all the small tentacles to spawn in a neat clump that could be AOE'd down, versus out in the open where they'd spawn all over and need singletargetting down. This is the thing that closest resemble Butcher's situation, I guess.

Am I forgetting any?

I never said that they didn't fix anything, I said that they never claimed anything to be an exploit.

If doing any of the tactics they fixed was considered exploiting then the offenders would've been suspended.

An example of an exploit is saronite bombs on Lich King. The offenders got suspended and it was fixed.

I'm not even sure why you are even mentioning Atramedes, because like you said the fight was not balanced correctly and was impossible without exploiting.
Lich King was not impossible to do without saronite bombs, that's why they got punished for it.

No one was ever punished for tanking Cho'gall in a different position, and you are correct that is what closest resembles Butcher right now. If Blizzard thought that tanking Cho'gall on the throne was an exploit then they would have suspended the offenders and fixed it, but they did not.

There is literally no way for you to justify calling moving Butcher an exploit.

[Jalopy]

Not an exploit, just a pussy strat.

[Deleted]

Yeah, but weren't the bombs actually triggering a bug in that case?

This 'pool party' strategy is valid positioning of a mob. It's not abusing a broken mechanic. It just seems to be a strategy the devs didn't consider. I'm sure they'll fix it if it ends up being a problem, but giving out a ban would be shifty as fuck since it isn't really an exploit.

You can compare it to last boss in Kara (Prince) where you could position the raid to negate the majority of the mechanics. It's not a glitch or an explot but as some stated probably not something that was intended to be used.

If Blizz thinks it's wrong they will fix it, if not then you simply used whatever legit resources you had at your disposal.

[adamzz]

Not an exploit, just a pussy strat.

Yea, damn pussies for using a strat that makes the fights easier, they should stop stacking for debuff as well because it makes the fight easier damn pussies.

[Deleted]

They were a part of EVERY encounter.
The alternative was for them to cut their DPS due to Blizzard's mistake.

You sound like you almost believe it yourself.

[Herecius]

It looks like clever use of space to me. However if this trivializes (in Blizzard's opinion) the encounter then expect a fix to be implemented. No bugs involved, no outside items used, no special buffing or debuffing that's not intended, so not banable. If Blizzard made a mistake with making the room they will come to a decision sometime. Either a fight change or they will let it go. In the past we have seen things go either way.

I'd hardly say it even trivializes it though. DPS was still very tight, a hunter was still needed to pick up some adds that couldn't be funneled, and they did still almost wipe near the end.

[Dracodraco]

I never said that they didn't fix anything, I said that they never claimed anything to be an exploit.

If doing any of the tactics they fixed was considered exploiting then the offenders would've been suspended.

An example of an exploit is saronite bombs on Lich King. The offenders got suspended and it was fixed.

I'm not even sure why you are even mentioning Atramedes, because like you said the fight was not balanced correctly and was impossible without exploiting.
Lich King was not impossible to do without saronite bombs, that's why they got punished for it.

No one was ever punished for tanking Cho'gall in a different position, and you are correct that is what closest resembles Butcher right now. If Blizzard thought that tanking Cho'gall on the throne was an exploit then they would have suspended the offenders and fixed it, but they did not.

There is literally no way for you to justify calling moving Butcher an exploit.

Uhm. Might wanna reread my post. I never called moving butcher an exploit anywhere. I never disagreed with this not being an exploit. I was merely pointing out the different situations in which something like this has happened, and no punishments have gone out (AKA, it wasn't exploits - it was clever use of game mechanics due to no punishments). I didn't disagree with you, so I'm not sure why you're so fucking hostile, but thanks, I guess?