CM Lore on twitch: "rogues are not under performing"

[Deleted]

What exactly makes this a rogue issue? This is a monk issue.

Well it's either all dps specs can do everything, or each dps spec has advantages and disadvantages / "niches".

And for WoD it's apparently the former, unless you introduce double standards for classes with multiple dps specs versus single dps specs.

That makes it a rogue issue.

[Maelstrom51]

Rogues are fine, Assassination is in the dead middle of the dps charts. If anyone has any right to complain it's the Warlocks. They are by far the worst right now.

I would say warlocks have it just as bad rather than far worse.

See: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=90

And the individual boss fights within there. Its a 50/50 split as to whether the top rogue spec or top warlock spec is lower on each fight.

[Jayma]

What exactly makes this a rogue issue? This is a monk issue.

or warrior/paladin/enhance/dk who also do nearly everything better.

Combat ST is absolutely horrendous. There is no defense or reason as to why combat should not be at least viable on fights other than cleave.

[Duravian]

As a combat rogue I always top the charts in aoe fights, and usually maintain at least top 5 dps even on single targets. However... I only go as high as LFR, if that's worth anything.

[Dextar]

What exactly makes this a rogue issue? This is a monk issue.

It's a Monk issue, and a Ret issue, and a Feral issue, and a (insert class here). Again, the numbers are there. If you choose to ignore them, then your comments are invalid.

[Bullettime]

It's a Monk issue, and a Ret issue, and a Feral issue, and a (insert class here). Again, the numbers are there. If you choose to ignore them, then your comments are invalid.

Keep in mind that part of the problem is that Blizzard did not do a final 100 talent or AoE tuning pass like they promised were both coming before 6.0. It's made Highmaul kind of a wreck as some classes have next to zero AoE or cleave and others still have it with no downside, being able to have top tier AoE AND single target.

I'm expecting a tuning pass to hit along with the Blackrock Foundry raid opening as otherwise balance will be a total disaster given the amount of cleaving and multitarget encounters present in that raid. That is one of the biggest reasons for Highmaul balance being as skewed as it is and Foundry will be much much worse.

[Exroyal]

I think Rogues are weak atm, not as bad as some people claim them to be, but not that good that i feel comfortable with my, but maybe that's because i'm a bad Rogue who knows, however what i don't like is that Warrior has 3 dps specs and 1 tank, and all 3 of their dps specs outdps our best aoe spec according to this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#boss=1722

I know that this is an aoe fight, but still, this doesn't look fine to me.

[azurrei]

You guys do realize they are balancing for the entire tier, right? They are looking at rogues in 670++ gear doing BRF, not 650+ rogues doing HM. Honestly, rogues should be used to being average at the start of an expansion and really good towards the middle/end.

[SinAscendant]

I think Rogues are weak atm, not as bad as some people claim them to be, but not that good that i feel comfortable with my, but maybe that's because i'm a bad Rogue who knows, however what i don't like is that Warrior has 3 dps specs and 1 tank, and all 3 of their dps specs outdps our best aoe spec according to this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#boss=1722

I know that this is an aoe fight, but still, this doesn't look fine to me.

I'm pretty sure that means warrior is OP, not that rogue is UP.

We have a spec in the top third, a spec in the middle, and a spec in the bottom third. That's about as balanced as you can get.

[Floopa]

sub and combat are strong. assassination seems weak.

[korruna]

My god, I'm starting to miss Ghostcrawler, and that says it all.

At least he didn't play whack-a-mole with the balance nerf-hammer and buff-hammer.

[Twix]

sub and combat are strong. assassination seems weak.

combat sucks on ST.. and compared to other melee dps we're weaker

[Dextar]

Keep in mind that part of the problem is that Blizzard did not do a final 100 talent or AoE tuning pass like they promised were both coming before 6.0. It's made Highmaul kind of a wreck as some classes have next to zero AoE or cleave and others still have it with no downside, being able to have top tier AoE AND single target.

I'm expecting a tuning pass to hit along with the Blackrock Foundry raid opening as otherwise balance will be a total disaster given the amount of cleaving and multitarget encounters present in that raid. That is one of the biggest reasons for Highmaul balance being as skewed as it is and Foundry will be much much worse.

I was expecting a tuning pass before Highmaul, then before mythic. I've given up on waiting for a tuning pass. Shamans were complaining up a storm and they got some pretty nice buffs and look at their damage.

[Lesane]

What exactly makes this a rogue issue? This is a monk issue.

It's not a monk issue. Monks are fine, they just have a full fledged DPS toolkit which means they will never suck on any fight unless their spec sucks as a whole in which case it's just a matter of turning the dial on a few of their numbers. It's a rogue issue, and hunter issue and etc. issue for having half assed specs for the sake of having "niches" (read: being handicapped in certain areas of the DPS spectrum). It would've been "fine" (but not preferred) if Combat being an AoE niche spec means it destroys everyone on the DPS meter on an AoE fight, but it doesn't. It just means you can somewhat compete on AoE fights and suck ass on others.

[Floopa]

combat sucks on ST.. and compared to other melee dps we're weaker

maybe because combat is a cleave spec? it does fine on mythic mar'gok

just like sub performs perfectly fine on mythic butcher

[Artorius]

There is no such thing as cleave spec, they're both dps specs.

[Jayma]

maybe because combat is a cleave spec? it does fine on mythic mar'gok

just like sub performs perfectly fine on mythic butcher

If it's a cleave spec you would think it would be good on 2 targets.
It's only decent on AoE and there are still other classes/specs that are better.

All those specs/classes that beat combat at AoE also beat combat by a wide margin at ST.

[Maelstrom51]

just like sub performs perfectly fine on mythic butcher

Ehem.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...706&dataset=80

[Voij]

There is no such thing as cleave spec, they're both dps specs.

You... you are joking, right? Is that supposed to be idealistic, as in "everyone's simply dps once we're all adequately balanced" or some shite like that?
Compare Sub's AoE/Cleave damage with that of Combat. There's an entire galaxy of difference between the two.
Now compare the single target damage. Difference is much smaller, but still incredibly noticeable.

Saying that there're no "cleave specs" is like saying that back in SoO Affliction and Destruction warlocks were equally suited for multi-target and AoE fights. [600k DPS Destro on Garrosh says hi, as does 700k Affli on Protectors.]

[Jiigeri]

maybe because combat is a cleave spec? it does fine on mythic mar'gok

just like sub performs perfectly fine on mythic butcher

There's no logs at the time of this post for combat rogues on mythic mar'gok. Where did you get your data from? The reason is simply the fact that subtlety is far more useful for that boss compared to any other rogue spec out there, it's pointless to lower single target damage to cleave than it is to cleave to increase single target damage (ie. what enchancement is doing with their fine nova). Just pointing this out.

Obviously theres very little public data from mythic mar'gok anyway.