"MMO's should abandon Raiding."

[Slant]

And many people are not into those kinds of solutions. I do not enjoy mining minerals to make bigger ships to mine more minerals. And DayZ is yet another minecraft-like game - Lots to do, but no motivation to do any of it.

I'd be happy if they switched to dungeons full time, keeping them difficult in the process. Small-group content usually doesn't require a lot of coordination like raids do, and can be solved in a night or two if given the effort. Still endgame with an end goal - But able to reach more people as it doesn't require the large play time investment to even start.

The key to those games is to set your own goals. It may not be an alternative that you want to play, but it is a very viable alternative and can be quite challenging. Personally, I have a couple of things in mind that are more in the middle grounds. The theme park style of WoW is high maintenance for little reward, I don't think it's feasible to continue going down that road for new games. The full sandbox mode is probably not the perfect solution either.

[Deleted]

I think its wrong to focus on raiding. Blizzard should move the focus to broad audience content, as like the garrison or 5 mans.

Raids should have no focus, but should just be one of the components which offer gameplay. You should also be able to gain the same gear by other means.

WoW is too raiding centric.

Garrison Missions, PVP, Crafting, CM dungeon + World drops.
What is the problem?

[Random Word]

Garrison Missions, PVP, Crafting, CM dungeon + World drops.
What is the problem?

Lol, you call that "content"? Even shitty f2ps have more content.

[Deleted]

Lol, you call that "content"? Even shitty f2ps have more content.

Okay, like what f2p.

[Usagi Senshi]

I get that you love ARR no matter what, but to completely ignore its flaws is asinine.

I could say the same of you, maybe you're just incapable of seeing an amazing game's worth for what it really is.

It has flaws but they're extremely minor and the upcoming expansion is fucking amazing. At least they'll have flying and amazing looking mounts, lol!

[Aeula]

The main issue with raids is their lack of accessibility, WoW has pretty much fixed that issue with LFR and normal (Flex) mode.

[Deleted]

EVE is more like a Space Age Economy Sim than an MMO. It has a very small but very loyal playerbase who enjoy the complexity of its economy, politics and its hostile environments. EVE has no PvE at all. The game is essentially based on maths, pattern recognition, trolling, ganking, griefing, manipulation and politicking. It is an excellent game, but it takes a specific type of player to enjoy it.

I haven't played EVE in years, yet I still have half a dozen notebooks filled up with economy related notes, spreadsheets upon spreadsheets from my tech/ship trading days and route print outs for hauling contracts. I don't know how many WoW players would enjoy spending 2 hours planning out a 5 hour, fuckton jump route to carry 400$ worth of shit around in game, getting a mini heart attack every time you jump into a system and find local choke full of gankers, just waiting to blow up your expensive as hell ship, take your cargo, and then you can say goodbye to the huge collateral you had to put in for the contract.

WoW players rage when they get ganked once while herbing.

Truer words have never been spoken. I can't imagine your average WoW pop staying subbed to EVE for more than 1 month. It's not a game for faint of heart.

[Shiekyerbooty]

Raiding is the only reason I'm still playing Garrison-lords of Draenor

Even that is less fun because of the horrible balancing so far this xpac

[Wildmoon]

Lol, you call that "content"? Even shitty f2ps have more content.

then what would you call content? It's not what you like doesn't mean it's not content.

[Volitar]

'gaming journalism' should abandon talking about mmmos. They are call of duty players who just jump from new game to new game.

[Sib]

If WoW would have no raiding I'd stop playing that very second.

Raids are what make an MMO an MMO, at least on the PvE front.

Comparing WoW to Lord of the Rings Online or Wildstar is just silly. There is a very good reason why those games barely break a couple of hundred thousand subscriptions, or active players.

And comparing WoW to DayZ or to EVE Online is not even funny. One is a completely different genre, it's like comparing CoD to SC2, and the other EVE Online is not really an MMO as we know it Jim.

EVE is more like a Space Age Economy Sim than an MMO. It has a very small but very loyal playerbase who enjoy the complexity of its economy, politics and its hostile environments. EVE has no PvE at all. The game is essentially based on maths, pattern recognition, trolling, ganking, griefing, manipulation and politicking. It is an excellent game, but it takes a specific type of player to enjoy it.

I haven't played EVE in years, yet I still have half a dozen notebooks filled up with economy related notes, spreadsheets upon spreadsheets from my tech/ship trading days and route print outs for hauling contracts. I don't know how many WoW players would enjoy spending 2 hours planning out a 5 hour, fuckton jump route to carry 400$ worth of shit around in game, getting a mini heart attack every time you jump into a system and find local choke full of gankers, just waiting to blow up your expensive as hell ship, take your cargo, and then you can say goodbye to the huge collateral you had to put in for the contract.

WoW players rage when they get ganked once while herbing.

That feeling of jumping into a hairball is amazing

[Wildtree]

People are idiots for pouring money into shit games like candy crush, and influencing an entire market. why bother taking the time to create something amazing like last of us when, instead you can just make a shit burger like candy crush full of art that any 6th grader could pull off within an hour of learning photoshop.



Does that shit wow you?

It might not be appealing to you, me, or anyone here either... But....
nearly 100 mio ppl play it daily, and 500 mio have it installed..

There is a huge market for games that don't have the theme park method end game method.
The much more alluring effect lies in the continuation theme. What drives games like Candy Crush etc. is the sheer endless level count.
You can go on forever, and don't reach the end, and yet you still progress along.
Plus, the convenience factor. WoW is, or other games, is as such a very inconvenient game, if one engages in dungeons and raids.
We live in a fast pace time. Being stuck with something for hours on end, that's just not everyone's cup of tea.

I do believe how similar systematic could benefit WoW, or other mmo's as well.
An aspect of true progression... Something you'll never lose. That's what attracts more people than something that attracts for some time, but sooner or later you realize, how it's gone again, and it's but the same old repetition over and over again.
In other words, a feeling of mastering a journey. That feel, or the alternative thereof, is what could replace raids as we have them.

[Dejablue]

If WoW would have no raiding I'd stop playing that very second.

Raids are what make an MMO an MMO, at least on the PvE front.

Comparing WoW to Lord of the Rings Online or Wildstar is just silly. There is a very good reason why those games barely break a couple of hundred thousand subscriptions, or active players.

And comparing WoW to DayZ or to EVE Online is not even funny. One is a completely different genre, it's like comparing CoD to SC2, and the other EVE Online is not really an MMO as we know it Jim.

EVE is more like a Space Age Economy Sim than an MMO. It has a very small but very loyal playerbase who enjoy the complexity of its economy, politics and its hostile environments. EVE has no PvE at all. The game is essentially based on maths, pattern recognition, trolling, ganking, griefing, manipulation and politicking. It is an excellent game, but it takes a specific type of player to enjoy it.

I haven't played EVE in years, yet I still have half a dozen notebooks filled up with economy related notes, spreadsheets upon spreadsheets from my tech/ship trading days and route print outs for hauling contracts. I don't know how many WoW players would enjoy spending 2 hours planning out a 5 hour, fuckton jump route to carry 400$ worth of shit around in game, getting a mini heart attack every time you jump into a system and find local choke full of gankers, just waiting to blow up your expensive as hell ship, take your cargo, and then you can say goodbye to the huge collateral you had to put in for the contract.

WoW players rage when they get ganked once while herbing.

EVE has plenty of PVE. Missions, SOE, FW, Ratting, Complexes, Incursions(ostensibly raids), Mining, PI, Exploration. It can all get conflated such as Wormhole POS, but it is all like playing on a PVP server, youa re out doing your quest and get ganked. Incursions are like doing old school Azuregos or Kazzak or Four Dragons, you may get a PVP battle going on or a griefer that gets killed and heals Kazzak or shrooms everyone on whatever dragon that was.

Sure players have to defend POS and fight over moon resources for PI but it does not preclude PVE.

[flinchy]

EVE has no PvE at all. The game is essentially based on maths, pattern recognition, trolling, ganking, griefing, manipulation and politicking. It is an excellent game, but it takes a specific type of player to enjoy it.

as someone who's played eve for years almost purely PvE until faction warfare came out

wtf are you talking about no PvE in eve?

the PvE is just as time consuming and enjoyable as the PvP, there's even raid-type encounters where you need multiple people (or accounts) in extremely well equipped, highly skilled ships/characters.

[Ninjavitis]

I don't think blizzard could ever completely get rid of raids, unless it was replaced with something pretty substantial. No, not scenarios. No, pvp is not enough. Bigger/longer dungeons would be a start (and most definitely more of), but not even scratching the surface when it comes to replacing raids. I don't think the amount of people, who experience or want to experience raiding to it's fullest, is as small as people think it is. I don't doubt that removing raids from WoW would kill the game. Same would be if they removed pvp entirely. They're 2 halves of the game. And after all this time, would just feel incomplete without 1 or the other.


And for those mentioning EVE. Take it from someone who has played it for a number of years. Sure those big fights that do happen look awesome, and they are awesome but they don't happen often. Most of the time I spent in low sec part of an alliance was ratting, and docking up when a neutral entered your territory, sometimes camping a gate. Missions are only fun for so long. Mining is basically click a button while watching a movie, then dumping ore every couple minutes. PI is basically set it and forget it. Wormholes are just low sec without system chat, but with better loot/salvage.

[Bosen]

I've always preferred 5-Mans. I used to do those for fun until I got brave enough to start raiding, which was more stressful to me.

I don't think raiding should be done away with.

The companies making excuses are doing so because they failed and they need an explanation besides "Our game isn't popular".

Or "We suck at designing raids".

[Kanck]

If Blizzard abandoned raiding, there would be nothing for organized raiders to do.

This incarnation of LFR is really despicable, and pugging even normal Highmaul is a pretty contentious, unpleasant affair, so I am thinking that the remainder of players, 90-95% of them, would be "well, frankly I'm glad that's finally over with."

Personally, I would be glad if there was no raiding in WoW this time around. I think it has reached a really awkward, terrible plateau that is starting to look like an endpoint.

What would replace it? Who knows. Maybe some FUN content rather than some HARD content. Every time a FUN idea comes up Blizzard also adds some HARD to it then adds some more HARD which eventually becomes LOOK IT UP ON THE INTERNET. (Freakin' Celestial pet tournament FTL.) I'm not all that sure Blizzard really understands FUN though, which I think is probably the only real and persistent weakness they have as a company.

For the love of god, define "fun". Yesterday I spent 2 hours defeating a dragon in Dragon Age Inquisition, on not even the hardest difficulty. It was pretty hard, to me at least, but it every minute of it was worth it. I haven't had that much fun in a game in ages. I really don't understand people like you. Do you have no desire to challenge yourself? Is the point of your game-time to mindlessly straddle along "clicking the shiny"? Where did you pick up this ridiculous notion that hard can never co-exist with fun? Have you ever played an instrument? Sports? How did you deal with tests in school?

Please tell me what fun is without challenge. I am desparate after reading tons of posts like yours around the interwebs. It's absurd to me. I've played games that focused on being "fun", but they've all boiled down to being grindy point and click games.

[FightingFarse]

For the love of god, define "fun". Yesterday I spent 2 hours defeating a dragon in Dragon Age Inquisition, on not even the hardest difficulty. It was pretty hard, to me at least, but it every minute of it was worth it. I haven't had that much fun in a game in ages. I really don't understand people like you. Do you have no desire to challenge yourself? Is the point of your game-time to mindlessly straddle along "clicking the shiny"? Where did you pick up this ridiculous notion that hard can never co-exist with fun? Have you ever played an instrument? Sports? How did you deal with tests in school?

Please tell me what fun is without challenge. I am desparate after reading tons of posts like yours around the interwebs. It's absurd to me. I've played games that focused on being "fun", but they've all boiled down to being grindy point and click games.

Fun and hard can coexist. The problem here is that we're adding the "other people" factor on the "fun + hard" equation. The other people tends to spoil any fun we can extract from challenging contents. Its fun to spend 2 hours killing a dragon in an epic battle. Its not fun to deal with other people bullshit while we're trying to kill a dragon.

[klogaroth]

Lets link a video:



Watch this video.

And return to me and tell me why ALL MMOs should do any one thing that YOU individually like.

Yes, new MMOs should stop trying to be WoW.

Should WoW abandon being WoW? That's a stupid idea. And if you think it please go away and have some thinking time for a while.

There is no perfect MMO. There are only perfect MMOs.