Another Class idea: Tinkerer

[Doctor Amadeus]

i believe that forsaken dks get made fun of somewhere in game for dying twice

Hahahaha, yeah well when the first Undead was made a DK, I would pay real gold to watch that poker game


LK: You will serve me, die or exist in a state of never ending torment

UD: Um.... You must be new!

[Julian Rayne]

One advantage of adding Tinkers as a playable class is that people will stop calling them Tinkerers.

[Ielenia]

Tech-based class does not exist, therefore you can not say they are the same. What are you comparing? Engineers to 'Engineers'.

I am comparing the game's engineer with what the game have shown us a 'tinker' is.

No, you wouldn't. The reason is because you're comparing Engineers to itself. This is the same logical fallacy that the 'Demon Hunters are Warlocks' crowd makes. The reason they can't accept a possible DH class is because they are already committed to the mindset that Warlocks do everything a possible DH would.

No. Read my answer above. And I'm not going to discuss how DHs also suffer from just as many impediments as the tinker because this isn't a DH thread.

A tech-based class can be separated from Engineers by that very same thread. Player Engineers aren't Demolitions Experts or Steam Warriors or Snipers. Even from a lore stance, they are literally defined by their profession.

Demolition experts are players who took the Goblin especialization of Engineering. Steam Warriors are just about warriors with engineering. Snipers.... hunters.

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tinkers have been in lore since WC3 maybe longer.
so shush

And they exist in WoW as the engineering profession.

[Thimagryn]

I am comparing the game's engineer with what the game have shown us a 'tinker' is.

Which is your biggest mistake. Same reasoning behind comparing the game's Warlock with what the game has shown us of Demon Hunters. Think about it. You're falling into the same bullshit thought process that you should be well above.

There is no reason to apply player standards to NPCs, whether it's a class (calling Vol'jin a Warrior, calling Illidan a Warlock) or a Profession (assuming Tinkers are all 'X Class with Engineering Profession')

From the most basic lore standpoint, all NPC Tinkers are proficient with technology. That is the ONLY thing we gather from lore. There is nothing to tell us they are abiding by any Player standard (ie they all have Engineering Profession) at all. A Playable Class called a Tinker will have little relation to the NPCs, just as our Death Knights aren't the same Scourge Death Knights. The relationship is severed by means of lore and gameplay.

[Augrelle]

Concept? The same. A character that creates and uses technology.
Origin? The same. One who learns how to create and use technology.
Training? The same. As above.
Aspirations? The same.


Depends if he created the explosives or not.

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And I would agree with you if the engineering profession did not exist in WoW. But it does, and thematically is indistinguishable from the tinker.

Engineer
Concept? a profession that augments a classes abilities through the use of technology
Origin? A class who was insperied by technology to augment thier own abilities, while still having thier own abilities.
Training? Thier base class training (IE a warrior still trains as a warrior even if they use engineering) with a hint of messing around with technology on the side.

Tinker
Concept? A class based around the use of the technology in the warcraft universe
Origin? A person who abandons all other teachings other then the ways of technology, using it to do everything, from fighting, to healing, to making tea.
Training? Different from engineering, they would put thier entier effort into the develop and research of technology to use in various an new methods.

[Vulcanasm]

tinkers have been in lore since WC3 maybe longer.
so shush

Let me know the first time you can play Walrus Man and Speeder Pilot in a Star Wars game, and I'll accept this as a valid argument.

[Ielenia]

Which is your biggest mistake. Same reasoning behind comparing the game's Warlock with what the game has shown us of Demon Hunters. Think about it. You're falling into the same bullshit thought process that you should be well above.

There is no reason to apply player standards to NPCs, whether it's a class (calling Vol'jin a Warrior, calling Illidan a Warlock) or a Profession (assuming Tinkers are all 'X Class with Engineering Profession')

I should also add, since I forgot in that post, that I'm also comparing the game's engineer with the concept of the word 'tinker'. With what a real tinker does.

From the most basic lore standpoint, all NPC Tinkers are proficient with technology. That is the ONLY thing we gather from lore. There is nothing to tell us they are abiding by any Player standard (ie they all have Engineering Profession) at all. A Playable Class called a Tinker will have little relation to the NPCs, just as our Death Knights aren't the same Scourge Death Knights. The relationship is severed by means of lore and gameplay.

And you again use game terms and descriptions. Lore shows us all tinkers are proficient with technology, therefore they're engineers, since engineering is the only skill in the lore that deals with technology. 'Player standards' does not exist in the lore.

Oh, and btw, player Death Knights are the same as the scourge's Death Knights.

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Engineer
Concept? a profession that augments a classes abilities through the use of technology
Origin? A class who was insperied by technology to augment thier own abilities, while still having thier own abilities.
Training? Thier base class training (IE a warrior still trains as a warrior even if they use engineering) with a hint of messing around with technology on the side.

Tinker
Concept? A class based around the use of the technology in the warcraft universe
Origin? A person who abandons all other teachings other then the ways of technology, using it to do everything, from fighting, to healing, to making tea.
Training? Different from engineering, they would put thier entier effort into the develop and research of technology to use in various an new methods.

You're using game terms. You fail. Try again. Without using game terms. Only lore.

[Traveler Voltin]

Let me know the first time you can play Walrus Man and Speeder Pilot in a Star Wars game, and I'll accept this as a valid argument.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Tinker

Now what?

[Augrelle]

I should also add, since I forgot in that post, that I'm also comparing the game's engineer with the concept of the word 'tinker'. With what a real tinker does.


And you again use game terms and descriptions. Lore shows us all tinkers are proficient with technology, therefore they're engineers, since engineering is the only skill in the lore that deals with technology. 'Player standards' does not exist in the lore.

Oh, and btw, player Death Knights are the same as the scourge's Death Knights.

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You're using game terms. You fail. Try again. Without using game terms. Only lore.

This is were you fail, I did use lore terms. I've played the warcraft RPG books (which blizzard states uses "weak" lore, but lore non-the less). Any one in the RPG can learn engineering to augment their abilities with technology. Tinkers however, focus thier whole life around it. They do nothing else but it. Heck, they can even become tinker engineers.

[ro9ue]

I definitely think Tinker is the most likely next class. The niche is wide open.

As popular as Demon Hunters are, they bleed to far into Warlock territory. If anything, that would be a 4th spec for Warlocks.

[Ielenia]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Tinker

Now what?

The very first line of the article: "This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon."

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This is were you fail, I did use lore terms. I've played the warcraft RPG books (which blizzard states uses "weak" lore, but lore non-the less). Any one in the RPG can learn engineering to augment their abilities with technology. Tinkers however, focus thier whole life around it. They do nothing else but it. Heck, they can even become tinker engineers.

You used 'player standards'. That's game terms. And then saying the player class would not be related to NPCs. That's game terms. And really? 'Tinker engineer'? That's like implying you can be a mage without having to be a spellcaster. Characters who spend their whole lives inside laboratories, creating and developing more technology are still engineers. They're just not the adventuring type. Or are you trying to say 'Tinkers' are engineers who don't go on adventures? Wouldn't that defeat the idea of making them into a class, if you'll just be confined inside a lab all the time?

[Augrelle]

This is were you fail, I did use lore terms. I've played the warcraft RPG books (which blizzard states uses "weak" lore, but lore non-the less). Any one in the RPG can learn engineering to augment their abilities with technology. Tinkers however, focus thier whole life around it. They do nothing else but it. Heck, they can even become tinker engineers.

Engineer
Concept? a person who augments the abilities they learn through thier life choices with technology
Origin? A person who was insperied by technology to augment thier own abilities, while still having thier original abilities/teachings.
Training? a priest who studies the word of the holy light will still study the word of the holy light while learning engineering, but will also study blue-prints and plans to learn more of technology.

Tinker
Concept? a person who was so inspired by the technology of the universe, to use nothing but it.
Origin? A person who abandons all other teachings other then the ways of technology, using it to do everything, from fighting, to healing, to making tea.
Training? Different from an engineer. They would not go to the barracks and train with the other warriors, or go pray with the other priests, for tinkers are not anything else but tinkers. The house that tinkers would spend thier lives in are the workshops. they would put thier entier effort into the develop and research of technology to use in various an new methods.

And there, a little simple wordplay fits your "use only lore terms".

[Traveler Voltin]

The very first line of the article: "This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon."

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You used 'player standards'. That's game terms. And then saying the player class would not be related to NPCs. That's game terms. And really? 'Tinker engineer'? That's like implying you can be a mage without having to be a spellcaster. Characters who spend their whole lives inside laboratories, creating and developing more technology are still engineers. They're just not the adventuring type. Or are you trying to say 'Tinkers' are engineers who don't go on adventures? Wouldn't that defeat the idea of making them into a class, if you'll just be confined inside a lab all the time?

Quit quoting me. I am talking to the person who thinks tinkers come from another game.

[Typhoria]

I definitely think Tinker is the most likely next class. The niche is wide open.

As popular as Demon Hunters are, they bleed to far into Warlock territory. If anything, that would be a 4th spec for Warlocks.

I doubt either would be the next class tbh. Demon Hunters won't happen period, but why would Tinkers just come out of nowhere and suddenly decide to fight? Dks came exclusively from the scourge that defected. The current in game monks came from Pandaria teachings. It would be a class that has been in isolation now emerging to deal with issues plaguing Azeroth. I could see the Dragonflights training select mortals to be the new protectors of Azeroth (Dragonsworn) after the defeat of Deathwing.

[Augrelle]

The very first line of the article: "This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon."

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You used 'player standards'. That's game terms. And then saying the player class would not be related to NPCs. That's game terms. And really? 'Tinker engineer'? That's like implying you can be a mage without having to be a spellcaster. Characters who spend their whole lives inside laboratories, creating and developing more technology are still engineers. They're just not the adventuring type. Or are you trying to say 'Tinkers' are engineers who don't go on adventures? Wouldn't that defeat the idea of making them into a class, if you'll just be confined inside a lab all the time?

you're misunderstanding that.

One is a way of life
The other is a way to augment your current life.

That is the difference between engineer and tinker. In one corner, you do nothing but it. Even if you adventuer, you are still doing it. In the other corner, you learn the disiplin of another way of life while still doing it.

[Zantos]

Not a new idea by any means. However, I do not like the idea. Feels to much like an engineer. Even if you think of other things they would use, still would just feel a bit redundant with engineers being a thing. It would be like "hey, I am an engineer. Why can't I do the stuff those tinkers are doing? I make guns too!!". Or the tinkers would say the same thing, but targeted at the engineers.

[Augrelle]

To add a bit to my last post.

Think of it like vegitarians (the difference between engineer and tinker). Some people choose to take it so far that it becomes a way of life, and they will do no other options but it.

[ro9ue]

I doubt either would be the next class tbh. Demon Hunters won't happen period, but why would Tinkers just come out of nowhere and suddenly decide to fight? Dks came exclusively from the scourge that defected. The current in game monks came from Pandaria teachings. It would be a class that has been in isolation now emerging to deal with issues plaguing Azeroth. I could see the Dragonflights training select mortals to be the new protectors of Azeroth (Dragonsworn) after the defeat of Deathwing.

It's not like scourge didn't exist before Wrath of the Lich King. The answer to your question is easy if you just use any inkling of imagination. Blizzard could simply say Goblin and Gnome technology competition is reaching new levels and they are bringing mech suit classes to battle.

Dragonsworn have no precedence in WoW whatsoever. That doesnt mean they can't make something like that, but Tinker started in WC3 and Goblin/Gnome engineering is a huge portion of Warcraft lore. There's clearly a lot of room to differentiate it from Engineers as well, you could look at the Goblins and Gnomes Hearthstone packs and have a ton of ideas.

[Thimagryn]

I should also add, since I forgot in that post, that I'm also comparing the game's engineer with the concept of the word 'tinker'. With what a real tinker does.

Then you're arguing semantics. I don't care what you think the word 'Tinker' applies to or means, but it has only applied to NPCs which still have no bearing on Player classes. Until we see a Player referred to as a 'Tinker', you can not assume that all player Engineers are called Tinkers. There is no instance where a Player has been called a Tinker, and that is applicable to both lore and gameplay.

And you again use game terms and descriptions. Lore shows us all tinkers are proficient with technology, therefore they're engineers, since engineering is the only skill in the lore that deals with technology. 'Player standards' does not exist in the lore.

That would be like saying lore shows us Enchanters are proficient with Arcane magic, therefore they're (assumed to be) Mages, since Mages are the only class in the game that deals with Arcane magic. It's the same logical fallacy. It's not true because you're taking a generalist approach to lore and applying it broadly to all specialized aspects. Again, it is no different than calling a Paladin a Priest because of their use of Holy magic. In the lore, there is no differentiation to Holy Magic, and there is no clear divide between one class and the other.. Your idea of 'concept, origin, training and aspirations' are all derived from gameplay. All of those aspects explain gameplay differences.

By all means, Paladin lore is derived from Priests. Uther the Lightbringer was a Priest who was called to found the Order of the Silver Hand. This Order is the only thing that separates a Paladin from a Priest. By this same method, we could easily have a Tinkers Union that becomes introduced to us. We already have a Tinker's Union loosely established in the lore.

Oh, and btw, player Death Knights are the same as the scourge's Death Knights.

No, they're not. Player Death Knights broke from Arthas' influence, while the Scourge ones are tied to the indomitable will of the Lich King. That is a very clear lore driven device.

If we had lore stating 'Tinkers are part of the Tinker Union', then we have an immediate lore-based reason to separate Tinkers from Engineers. Of course, as I've stated many times, Tinkers (as a playable class) don't actually exist in the lore yet. It is not safe to assume all existing Tinkers are Engineers in response to a lack of information. It's by this same reasoning that Demon Hunters should not be assumed as any existing class or profession other than 'Demon Hunters'.

[Ielenia]

you're misunderstanding that.

One is a way of life
The other is a way to augment your current life.

That is the difference between engineer and tinker. In one corner, you do nothing but it. Even if you adventuer, you are still doing it. In the other corner, you learn the disiplin of another way of life while still doing it.

If you do 'nothing but "it"', then you don't go on adventures. The engineer is the adventuring techie.

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Then you're arguing semantics. I don't care what you think the word 'Tinker' applies to or means, but it has only applied to NPCs which still have no bearing on Player classes. Until we see a Player referred to as a 'Tinker', you can not assume that all player Engineers are called Tinkers. There is no instance where a Player has been called a Tinker, and that is applicable to both lore and gameplay.

That is because game text has been written and designed in a way to call your character, if not by name, then by its race or class. There is no instance where our characters are referred to in quest text as our professions. And, regarding the first part, it's not 'what I think the word Tinker means'. It's what I know. What sites like Wikipedia, Oxford Dictionaries and others say of the word 'tinker'.

That would be like saying lore shows us Enchanters are proficient with Arcane magic, therefore they're (assumed to be) Mages, since Mages are the only class in the game that deals with Arcane magic. It's the same logical fallacy. It's not true because you're taking a generalist approach to lore and applying it broadly to all specialized aspects. Again, it is no different than calling a Paladin a Priest because of their use of Holy magic. In the lore, there is no differentiation to Holy Magic, and there is no clear divide between one class and the other.. Your idea of 'concept, origin, training and aspirations' are all derived from gameplay. All of those aspects explain gameplay differences.

Druids are also proficient with arcane magic. And knowing the 'enchanting' school of magic doesn't automatically teach you the other seven schools.

By all means, Paladin lore is derived from Priests. Uther the Lightbringer was a Priest who was called to found the Order of the Silver Hand. This Order is the only thing that separates a Paladin from a Priest. By this same method, we could easily have a Tinkers Union that becomes introduced to us. We have this established loosely in the lore already http://www.wowwiki.com/Tinkers'_Union

That's so ironic. Did you even read the link you just gave us? I mean, in the very first line: "The Tinkers' Union is a union of Goblin tinkers (also known as Engineers)." And its description also gives us nothing different than what engineers can easily do, in lore, too. Whereas the Order of the Silver Hand teaches clerics things normal priests cannot do, like sword-, axe- and mace-fighting, strength training, armor training, and new teaches. The Light itself grants the Paladins different abilities, like the Seals.

No, they're not. Player Death Knights broke from Arthas' influence, while the Scourge ones are tied to the indomitable will of the Lich King. That is a very clear lore driven device.

And that is their only difference. They still have the same spells, same skills, same type of gear, same training, etc.

If we had lore stating 'Tinkers are part of the Tinker Union', then we have an immediate lore-based reason to separate Tinkers from Engineers. Of course, as I've stated many times, Tinkers (as a playable class) don't actually exist in the lore yet. It is not safe to assume all existing Tinkers are Engineers in response to a lack of information. It's by this same reasoning that Demon Hunters should not be assumed as any existing class or profession other than 'Demon Hunters'.

But, as proven, tinkers do exist in the game, and by analyzing their skills, we can infer that they're just engineers with fancy titles, just like 'Siegecrafter' is a title.