Another Class idea: Tinkerer

[Teriz]

It's not the wording that changes anything, its implementation do. Warlock's fire spells and a Mage's fire spells are different in lore description, but they also play differently.

So explain how a magic version of Frozen ammo would play differently than a non-magical version of Frozen ammo.

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Right. Spellcasting classes are different from other Spellcasting classes too. We have 9 Spellcasting specs, each of which play very differently from each other, each of which have varying levels of thematic and gameplay overlap. We have 3 ranged specs, each which play differently from each other. A new Ranged DPS/Spellcaster wouldn't be too similar to what we already have; any more than you could say Fire is too similar to Destruction or Shadow too similar to Affliction.

Those are specs. I'm talking about the entire class. The basis of your argument is that this class is different because its a combination of existing classes. You can't say that this class is "new" when its simply borrowing from existing classes.

[Talen]

So explain how a magic version of Frozen ammo would play differently than a non-magical version of Frozen ammo.

It depends on the mechanics and gameplay and graphics and so on associated with the spell.

But that isn't the issue. The question you need to ask is whether the Sea Witch is close enough to an existing class that it can be considered already covered. So - what is the Sea Witch?...its a Ranged DPS class that uses a bow and can cast air/frost based spells. Considering the changes and adaptations Blizzard normally makes when it adds a class, could this be approximated by giving a Shaman or Mage a bow?

One could argue the relative lack of lore on the class opens up the possibility of adding it as a distinct separate class - perhaps mixed with Priestess of the Moon and Shadow Hunter. One could also use that to suggest that makes it easy to add as an addition to an existing class and that the overlap it has with other classes makes it unsuited for a class, that it is more of a chimaera taking elements from multiple existing classes than a distinct class in and of itself.

I would tend to lean towards the view that the overlap it shares with existing classes - a Hunters bow, a Shamans elemental spells - makes it unsuited for a standalone class design. I also don't think the current design has a clear theme or archetype aroudn which it can be designed....it's a caster with a bow instead of a staff.

I can see why others might want to push it, but I still think a Tech based class is likeliest, a Sound based class only slightly less likely and I think this is very much lagging behind the rest.

EJL

[Ielenia]

So explain how a magic version of Frozen ammo would play differently than a non-magical version of Frozen ammo.

You're asking me to differentiate gameplay differences between Frostbolt and Frozen Ammo? It all depends on the class and its mechanics. Neither Hunter's specs work with Frozen Ammo. Frozen Ammo doesn't affect their mastery, or mechanics. It's not baseline. Whereas in a class developed with a 'Frozen Ammo' look-a-like ability as baseline would have maybe the spec(s) built to work with it. Maybe the functionality is a bit different, like the slow applied is very small, but the debuff stacks, or it has a chance to proc a secondary effect that boosts a different ability in the class' spec, etc.

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I can see why others might want to push it, but I still think a Tech based class is likeliest, a Sound based class only slightly less likely and I think this is very much lagging behind the rest.

I believe the Bard has more chances, but, in all honesty, somehow I got this feeling that Blizzard is going to surprise everyone with a new class nobody was expecting. I don't know why, but it's how I'm currently feeling about this.

[Notshauna]

I believe the Bard has more chances, but, in all honesty, somehow I got this feeling that Blizzard is going to surprise everyone with a new class nobody was expecting. I don't know why, but it's how I'm currently feeling about this.

Bard runs into the support problem which I why I don't see them as very likely, support as role is super razor thin in terms of balancing, it's pretty much either mandatory or never played.

[Ielenia]

Bard runs into the support problem which I why I don't see them as very likely, support as role is super razor thin in terms of balancing, it's pretty much either mandatory or never played.

He doesn't have to be support. He could, for example, have a healing spec, and magic-DD spec, both based around song and sound, and a melee spec, as, using the DnD bard as example, is proficient with sword-play.

[Talen]

Bard runs into the support problem which I why I don't see them as very likely, support as role is super razor thin in terms of balancing, it's pretty much either mandatory or never played.

Which is an issue IF - and only if - you design them as a support class. The main problem the bard has, IMO, is that the stereotype it offers overlaps very heavily with the rogue. Conversely, because it is so rare in WoW, it would still be possible to create a class that defies that stereotype...but again, that would need to be balanced against the need to give players what they want and expect.

As stated, my own feeling is still that a Tech based is most likely - it has clear defiend theme that doesn't really overlap with any existing class, it is broad enough to be very flexible, its a theme that already exists in WOW but which is not explored, it can create a very different style of player avatar, it can expand the sue of guns and (possibly) mail, opens up the opportunity to expand Gnomish lore, offers the opportunity for Blizzard to more fully develop the tech base of Azeroth....and so on.

My own preference, if this is so, is for Blizzard to use this to develop all the tech styles in game. Horde and Allaince. Gnome, Draenei, Worgen, Dwarf, Goblin, Forsaken.

So - as an example - you'd have a tank (Steam Warrior with Dwarf tech), a Draenei healer (Combat Medic with Draenei tech) and a Ranged DPS (Operative with Gnome tech) on the Alliance side....mirrored by Horde style tech on the other (Forsaken Apothecary/Alchemist healer, Goblin Rocketeer ranged DPS, Goblin Tinker as tank)....all using a mix if bombs, grenades, sprays, turrets, drones, vibroweapons, etc as befitting their tech base and class. Sure - over ambitious, but why not aim high

More seriously - we don't know what class - if any - Blizzard will add next. We have some idea of whats important for them...but such things can change or be ignored should Blizzard feel strongly enough. A Tech based class seems, to me, to be most likely because it seems to hit so many of the targets we know Blizzard tends to aim for in class design. But that isn't an absolute guarantee.

Personally...I suspect Blizzard will add 4th specs to the existing classes next XPac, and then maybe it'll add another class. That'll allow it to give something to everyone, dilute the impact of dual spec and expand the class without adding moves to existing specs. Maybe it'll even be the reward from a class quest.

EJL

[Teriz]

You're asking me to differentiate gameplay differences between Frostbolt and Frozen Ammo?

No. I'm asking you to differentiate between Frozen Ammo and Frozen ammo, since the only difference would be a word in the description saying that its magical.

It all depends on the class and its mechanics. Neither Hunter's specs work with Frozen Ammo. Frozen Ammo doesn't affect their mastery, or mechanics. It's not baseline. Whereas in a class developed with a 'Frozen Ammo' look-a-like ability as baseline would have maybe the spec(s) built to work with it. Maybe the functionality is a bit different, like the slow applied is very small, but the debuff stacks, or it has a chance to proc a secondary effect that boosts a different ability in the class' spec, etc.

Sniper training says hello

Its also important to note that Survival's mastery increases all magical damage by 8% and effects Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Arcane Shot, Cobra Shot, Serpent Sting, and the damaging traps.

That's quite a bit of magic.

[Notshauna]

He doesn't have to be support. He could, for example, have a healing spec, and magic-DD spec, both based around song and sound, and a melee spec, as, using the DnD bard as example, is proficient with sword-play.

But by the same token a bard is the quintessential support and I feel that if they were to introduce a bard and make it a class that isn't designed to support you'd run into a massive backlash. Bards are, at least as I'm envisioning them, are fairly narrow in terms of what they can and can't do, they're buffer/debuffers. I'm honestly not familiar with the Bard as anything other than the support master, but while I think it's possible to make a sonic class without relying on support gameplay I you'd be kind of wasting it.

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My own preference, if this is so, is for Blizzard to use this to develop all the tech styles in game. Horde and Allaince. Gnome, Draenei, Worgen, Dwarf, Goblin, Forsaken.

So - as an example - you'd have a tank (Steam Warrior with Dwarf tech), a Draenei healer (Combat Medic with Draenei tech) and a Ranged DPS (Operative with Gnome tech) on the Alliance side....mirrored by Horde style tech on the other (Forsaken Apothecary/Alchemist healer, Goblin Rocketeer ranged DPS, Goblin Tinker as tank)....all using a mix if bombs, grenades, sprays, turrets, drones, vibroweapons, etc as befitting their tech base and class. Sure - over ambitious, but why not aim high

I personally see it being more Gnome, Draenei, Dwarf and Human for alliance and Goblin, Orc, Forsaken and Blood Elf for Horde. Of course I also place Tinkers as a plate class but that's just me.

Personally...I suspect Blizzard will add 4th specs to the existing classes next XPac, and then maybe it'll add another class. That'll allow it to give something to everyone, dilute the impact of dual spec and expand the class without adding moves to existing specs. Maybe it'll even be the reward from a class quest.

I honestly don't think 4th specs will ever happen, as it's insanely difficult to do right. I mean what do you do to pure DPS classes give them 4 DPS specs or try and staple on some hybridization? I really only see two things happening with that is class theme getting broken (now you can heal as a rogue have fun!) or we get some messy poorly thought out specs that don't really do anything different.

[Ielenia]

No. I'm asking you to differentiate between Frozen Ammo and Frozen ammo, since the only difference would be a word in the description saying that its magical.

I'm starting to think you don't read what I write and just skim through it, searching for your buzzwords. I never said it'd be their only difference.

Sniper training says hello.

This 'Sniper Training'? This mastery, which doesn't depend on 'Exotic Ammo' at all? Unlike, for example, Fingers of Frost depending on Frostbolt? Seriously, are you really reading what I write, or, like I said, only skimming for buzzwords?

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But by the same token a bard is the quintessential support and I feel that if they were to introduce a bard and make it a class that isn't designed to support you'd run into a massive backlash. Bards are, at least as I'm envisioning them, are fairly narrow in terms of what they can and can't do, they're buffer/debuffers. I'm honestly not familiar with the Bard as anything other than the support master, but while I think it's possible to make a sonic class without relying on support gameplay I you'd be kind of wasting it.

IF there is a backlash, I believe it won't be anywhere near as big as you think it'd be. Mainly because it's no secret that the WoW game engine and design does not support a 'support class'. All classes in the game have many support abilities, in varying quantities from class to class, from buffs to debuffs, from aggro transfers to crowd-control. Adapting a bard to be healer/DD, for example, is not as outlandish as you may think.

[Notshauna]

IF there is a backlash, I believe it won't be anywhere near as big as you think it'd be. Mainly because it's no secret that the WoW game engine and design does not support a 'support class'. All classes in the game have many support abilities, in varying quantities from class to class, from buffs to debuffs, from aggro transfers to crowd-control. Adapting a bard to be healer/DD, for example, is not as outlandish as you may think.

It just might be personal bias then, but it's super hard to tell how people would react.

[Teriz]

I'm starting to think you don't read what I write and just skim through it, searching for your buzzwords. I never said it'd be their only difference.

Yeah, let's try this again; How is a class that shoots magical arrows any different from a class that shoots magical arrows? Casting Shaman spells isn't enough, since the supposed differentiating factor is what Hunters already do: Magical archer class.

This 'Sniper Training'? This mastery, which doesn't depend on 'Exotic Ammo' at all? Unlike, for example, Fingers of Frost depending on Frostbolt? Seriously, are you really reading what I write, or, like I said, only skimming for buzzwords?

Sniper Training DOES effect Exotic Munitions though. That was the point I was making.

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It depends on the mechanics and gameplay and graphics and so on associated with the spell.

But that isn't the issue. The question you need to ask is whether the Sea Witch is close enough to an existing class that it can be considered already covered. So - what is the Sea Witch?...its a Ranged DPS class that uses a bow and can cast air/frost based spells. Considering the changes and adaptations Blizzard normally makes when it adds a class, could this be approximated by giving a Shaman or Mage a bow?

One could argue the relative lack of lore on the class opens up the possibility of adding it as a distinct separate class - perhaps mixed with Priestess of the Moon and Shadow Hunter. One could also use that to suggest that makes it easy to add as an addition to an existing class and that the overlap it has with other classes makes it unsuited for a class, that it is more of a chimaera taking elements from multiple existing classes than a distinct class in and of itself.

I would tend to lean towards the view that the overlap it shares with existing classes - a Hunters bow, a Shamans elemental spells - makes it unsuited for a standalone class design. I also don't think the current design has a clear theme or archetype aroudn which it can be designed....it's a caster with a bow instead of a staff.

I can see why others might want to push it, but I still think a Tech based class is likeliest, a Sound based class only slightly less likely and I think this is very much lagging behind the rest.

EJL

Agreed. All you need to do is allow Shaman to equip ranged weapons (and bring back the old imbuement system), and you have this "Sea Lord" class.

[Thimagryn]

Agreed. All you need to do is allow Shaman to equip ranged weapons (and bring back the old imbuement system), and you have this "Sea Lord" class.

haha, Ranged weapons aren't part of the Shaman identity, so what you have here is not an argument, it's an excuse. You can say the exact same thing for Hunters being allowed to wear Mech suits being the same as Tinkers.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, let's try this again; How is a class that shoots magical arrows any different from a class that shoots magical arrows? Casting Shaman spells isn't enough, since the supposed differentiating factor is what Hunters already do: Magical archer class.

A hunter isn't a 'magical archer class', despite it having a handful of magical abilities, just like the rogue is not a shadow spellcaster because a small handful of its abilities are shadow.

Sniper Training DOES effect Exotic Munitions though. That was the point I was making.

You're not reading, are you? Sniper Trainig does affect Exotic Munitions. I'm not contesting that. I'm saying is that Sniper Training is not affected by Exotic Munitions, like Fingers of Frost is affected by Frostbolt. No Hunter ability depends on Exotic Munitions. And that is the key.

[Teriz]

haha, Ranged weapons aren't part of the Shaman identity, so what you have here is not an argument, it's an excuse.

Shadow Hunters.

You can say the exact same thing for Hunters being allowed to wear Mech suits being the same as Tinkers.

Hunters don't wear mech suits, but they do use magic.

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A hunter isn't a 'magical archer class', despite it having a handful of magical abilities, just like the rogue is not a shadow spellcaster because a small handful of its abilities are shadow.

How is an archer that fires magical arrows not a magical archer?

Also Rogues don't cast spells.

You're not reading, are you? Sniper Trainig does affect Exotic Munitions. I'm not contesting that. I'm saying is that Sniper Training is not affected by Exotic Munitions, like Fingers of Frost is affected by Frostbolt. No Hunter ability depends on Exotic Munitions. And that is the key.

And what about Chimera shot? That ability is magic based, and also deals frost damage, and effects abilities within marksmanship.

[Ielenia]

How is an archer that fires magical arrows not a magical archer?

So the brewmaster monk is a fire spellcaster spec because it has fire spells? The Warrior and Paladin have some ranged skills, that doesn't make them a ranged class.

And what about Chimera shot? That ability is magic based, and also deals frost damage, and effects abilities within marksmanship.

Chimaera Shot fires two shots/arrows/bolts, one coated with poison for the nature damage, the other with frost oil for the frost damage. That's my take on it. Unless the ability's tooltip description says it's a spell, considering what the Hunter is, you cannot say as a fact that it's a magic ability.

[Teriz]

So the brewmaster monk is a fire spellcaster spec because it has fire spells?

You mean Breath of Fire? Isn't that based on the alcohol he drinks?

Chimaera Shot fires two shots/arrows/bolts, one coated with poison for the nature damage, the other with frost oil for the frost damage. That's my take on it. Unless the ability's tooltip description says it's a spell, considering what the Hunter is, you cannot say as a fact that it's a magic ability.

Except Frost oil doesn't deal frost damage, it gives a melee weapon a chance to cast frostbolt.

[Thimagryn]

Shadow Hunters.

Aren't Shamans either

Hunters don't wear mech suits, but they do use magic.

And your argument implies that they could also wear mech suits in order to fulfill a broader technology theme, since they already have technology. Using that argument, we don't need Tinkers.

[Ielenia]

You mean Breath of Fire? Isn't that based on the alcohol he drinks?

That's my point. You say because Chimaera shot does nature and frost damage it has to be magical, when there's a perfectly fine explanation that it doesn't have to be magical to deal nature or frost damage.

Except Frost oil doesn't deal frost damage, it gives a melee weapon a chance to cast frostbolt.

I used the name 'frost oil' not as a reference to the actual item, but as an allusion of an oil/coating/whatever that drains heat, hence, cold.

[Teriz]

Aren't Shamans either

Is that why Shaman have 3/4 of their abilities?

And your argument implies that they could also wear mech suits in order to fulfill a broader technology theme, since they already have technology. Using that argument, we don't need Tinkers.

Not even close to the same thing, since Hunters don't need to use guns to use their abilities. Meanwhile, Magic and magic damage permeates throughout the Hunter class.

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That's my point. You say because Chimaera shot does nature and frost damage it has to be magical, when there's a perfectly fine explanation that it doesn't have to be magical to deal nature or frost damage.

Well it sort of helps my argument that many of the Hunter's shots are magic-based.

I used the name 'frost oil' not as a reference to the actual item, but as an allusion of an oil/coating/whatever that drains heat, hence, cold.

So in other words head canon?

[Talen]

But by the same token a bard is the quintessential support

In **OTHER*** games.

I personally see it being more Gnome, Draenei, Dwarf and Human for alliance and Goblin, Orc, Forsaken and Blood Elf for Horde. Of course I also place Tinkers as a plate class but that's just me.

I simply went with the races that were associated with Technology. On the Allaince side....that would be the Draenei, Dwarves, Gnomes and Worgen. On the Horde side - that'd be the Goblin, with the Forsaken thrown in more to help balance the numbers and an excuse to bring in the Alchemist as a Technology unit. Humans, Orcs, BElfs...while they may use technology, they don't have a strong association with it.

I honestly don't think 4th specs will ever happen, as it's insanely difficult to do right. I mean what do you do to pure DPS classes give them 4 DPS specs or try and staple on some hybridization? I really only see two things happening with that is class theme getting broken (now you can heal as a rogue have fun!) or we get some messy poorly thought out specs that don't really do anything different.

"Insanely difficult to do right" is hugely overstating the problem. Of which the big one is "Do you hybridise the pures?". There are many advantages to giving them another role to play, but at the same time some players like pures because they won't get asked to tank or heal.

As it is, adding new roles to pures won't break any class theme.

Mage - Heal. They can do this in lore already. Have them use Time magic and Shields. Chronomancer/Timewalker.
Warlock - Tank. Long in game association with the role. Demon Hunter.
Rogue - Heal. Make use of the Bards roguish stereotype
Hunter - more difficult this, but Pet based tanking should be doable, Melee based DPS might be different, or a true Ranger is possible. A Herbalist style Healer, making use of nature to heal, would be perfectly doable as well.

And yes - it would also be possible to add a 4th DPS spec to each. Mages could be styled on BattleMages or Rogues could have a Ranger Ranged DPS spec for example.

Aren't Shamans either

The Shaman class is used to represent the Witch Doctors and Voodoo magics of the Trolls. The Shadow Hunter mixes that with a ranged weapon.

EJL