Estrangement from the Fantasy Genre

[Deleted]

Hello. I've always loved fantasy. However I've grown apart from it, and I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. But I have a question, which I'll get back to later. Quite honestly I find the genre and its tropes genuinely tedious now. I've loved many universes and different myths from Lord of the Rings to real world mythology and folklore. But I feel like I've "grown out" of it, if I may use the phrase. I can say at one point when I was a lot younger I was fascinated by the inner workings or the mechanics of fantasy: the heroism, the "badass" weapons, the powerful magic spells. As I got older I've sort of gone away from that. I used to write a lot of my own fantasy and did a lot of world building. Thinking back to that, I noticed a trend in my writing which would see me stray from these typical elements and try to gain on a more mature feeling world. I would employ a darker texture to the writing, discuss in-depth magic systems and construct my own maps. Eventually I began to write about obscure old gods and tried to make my writing as Lovecraftian as I possible could to convince myself that was I was writing was "mature". I used to defend fantasy so adamantly. But now I can't even stay behind that end of the spectrum or defend it, really. It was everything I ever loved, really. For the escapism, for the characters and their actions, and for the world itself. That last part is interesting, because that's just about the last thing I appreciate in fantasy any more.

I'm done with the magic, the swords, the epic adventures... Because it's all the same. I think the main reason I dislike fantasy is now that I've gotten much older I no longer connect with the vague ethereal realms in which fantasies exist. That is to say, if it's not grounded in reality then I have no interest in it. I really can't stand the vague "spiritual" nonsense that's inherent in most if not all fantasy worlds. It has to be gods or titans that created the universe. It has to be the chosen one. It has to a hero archetype, or if not then it's a dark, morally ambiguous blending of the two. I just can't become interested in something any more if it's got something to do with some unknowable omnipotent being or some demigod of untold power. The reason most fantasy is like this is because most fantasy is unashamedly steeped in influences from real world mythology and folklore. But it just doesn't interest me.

There's two sides of the spectrum here: childish, mind-numbing fantasy about battles and wacky mages (the sort of thing you'd see froma poorly made generic fantasy game) or "mature" fantasy that tries to be a little bit too deep or is in some way trying to evoke spirituality and some deeper morality tale. I don't think I have time for any of these.

The only thing I seem to enjoy in a fantasy these days is the actual fantastical elements represented by the worlds themselves, such as the geography, the plants and the animals. This is mainly because of areas of interest and study, but I won't go in to that.

I'm asking is there any fantasy out there that doesn't rely on these typical traits? Is there any grounded fantasy fiction? I realise that "grounded" and "fantasy" are unlikely to go together. I'd also be interested in reading if others have had this mindset change.

[Kasierith]

Many pieces of fantasy work are ultimately highly derivative. Things like Lord of the Rings and The Black Company serve as a template, especially for newer authors. Even Robert Jordan, one of the most well known authors in fantasy, started off writing Conan novels. World creation is complicated, it's tedious, and it's a lot of work.

If you want some original pieces that don't seem derivative from previous works, here are a few:
The Lies of Locke Lamora
The Name of the Wind
The Way of Kings

All three of these to varying degrees encompass world creation as their core concept. The Way of Kings especially; it's essentially a completely different, perfectly encapsulated universe with its own cultures and customs and beliefs incorporated into it.

[Deleted]

Thanks. I recognise some of those names. But I guess my main gripe honestly is this notion that all fantasy has to be beholden to some sort of spiritual mythos which is an overarching principle to everything the characters do. I just can't get behind old gods, spiritual deities of nature or anything of the sort by principle. I used to be actively WANT those things in fantasy. I don't dislike fantasy. I like fantasy geography, world building, flora and fauna and many of the elements that can remain grounded and be steeped in lore. That is all fascinating. I just don't like this ethereal otherworldly element because it takes me out of the world now. I have no problem with real stories told by real people, be they humans or hobbits or anything else. Samwise is a good example of what I still appreciate.

[Independent voter]

It's often said and I believe that genre fiction, SF fantasy etc, came from Westerns.

Read the Lonesome Dove series by Larry McMurtry. I think there's like 5 books with Lonesome Dove being the most famous. It won a Pulitzer.

Then read Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. It's the most horrifying thing I've read mostly because something like it probably happened and maybe still is happening somewhere.

[Harbour]

The Way of Kings

Basically this + Words of Radiants (Second Book). One of the best things i ever read (and i read all mainstream fantasy series, i.e. the Song of I/F, Amber, Wheel of time, Dragonlance, Hobbit/Lotr/Silm, Malazan Book of the Fallen, Hobb's series, Ted Williams's Manuscript and so on). Sympathetic main heroes, memorable second characters, really unique world (flora/fauna/cultures are totally different from generic medieval world), 8/10 plot, really refreshing magic system and action scenes. And no Martin's/Abercrombie's presudorealistic dirty shit. Pretty classic style high fantasy. And Epicness.
Among the last year's realeases it deserves 10/10 and imho it much better than The Name of the Wind (awesome)/Wise Man's Fear (totally garbage).

[ro9ue]

The only thing I got sick of really was the pure good vs pure evil trope. Don't get me wrong, I love me some LOTR/Hobbit, but as I got older I realize the world is mostly varying shades of grey. Things like Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones interest me more now. It's because the story is just about people, really. The magic is there, but it doesn't overshadow basic human interactions, values and conflicts which is something I feel like I'll always be able to relate to.

When I was younger it was just easier to be like ok Frodo is the good guy and I want him to defeat Sauron, because he's a dark lord and that's bad. Now when I see characters I want to know WHY they are bad. I want to know if they value X and Y, what they will do if they have to make a choice between the two. That's far more interesting to me now.

[Kasierith]

Thanks. I recognise some of those names. But I guess my main gripe honestly is this notion that all fantasy has to be beholden to some sort of spiritual mythos which is an overarching principle to everything the characters do. I just can't get behind old gods, spiritual deities of nature or anything of the sort by principle. I used to be actively WANT those things in fantasy. I don't dislike fantasy. I like fantasy geography, world building, flora and fauna and many of the elements that can remain grounded and be steeped in lore. That is all fascinating. I just don't like this ethereal otherworldly element because it takes me out of the world now. I have no problem with real stories told by real people, be they humans or hobbits or anything else. Samwise is a good example of what I still appreciate.

The Name of the Wind, that I recall, does not feature any overarching spiritual mythos. Well, it's a character study so I guess you could say the main character is, in himself, a mythos, but lets face it; anyone who enjoys the Name of the Wind isn't doing it for the main character, they're doing it for the fascinating, detailed, and alien but realistic world that the author creates.
While The Lies of Locke Lamora does features deities, and they take a prominent place in the book in terms of the beliefs of the main characters, the plot itself really isn't influenced by them at all. The concept of the deities existing and the impact of this commonly held belief on society is far more significant than anything that the deities themselves actually do; they are, in fact, essentially nonexistent as individual characters or beings.
In The Way of Kings, while it does feature deities and such and spiritual beings, the fact that it is so completely in its own world, imo, completely outweighs this. You want to see different flora and fauna examined in how they exist in a completely different world? It's done. Want to see a complex establishment of a society that feels real enough to exist? It's done. Want to see rich lore, that builds on itself and is interesting, gripping, and profoundly complex and inter meshed with the resulting society within the story? It's done. I would consider The Way of Kings to be the best world creation novel I have ever read.

[Nellise]

I think fantasy is always going to be stuck with gods or titans and that type of stuff because it incorporates magic so you need something that can cause magic. To get away from that while still keeping with world-building and the other things you like, you might want to move over to sci-fi novels. They'll generally try to describe things in a more scientific way without the ethereal-ness that you seem tired of.

[Stormcall]

I just can't become interested in something any more if it's got something to do with some unknowable omnipotent being or some demigod of untold power.

Very little Robert E. Howard is based around gods and such. Conan, Solomon Kane, Kull, Bran Mak Morn...OTOH, you ALSO aren't interested in heroes, battles, and that sort of thing, which kinda makes me think that you need to find another genre, cause this one isn't for you. Try sci-fi or something, cause wanting fantasy without ANY of the things you've complained about is like wanting an action movie, with no shooting, fighting, car chases, or explosions.

[Gothicshark]

I'm asking is there any fantasy out there that doesn't rely on these typical traits? Is there any grounded fantasy fiction? I realise that "grounded" and "fantasy" are unlikely to go together. I'd also be interested in reading if others have had this mindset change.

The War Hound and the World's Pain - Michael Moorcock
I wont lie and say Michael Moorcock is grounded, odds are he was high as a kite writing his books, but he is the Satanic Buddhist to Tolkien's Christian Fictions.

I recommend "The War Hound and the World's Pain" it's the first book in the Von Bek series, and you should be able to get the whole series as one book. Any troop found in Moorcocks writing originates with him. (yes you'll find a few) However he mixes sci-fi and high fantasy in ways that make sense and feel cool, as in Heavy Metal music cool.


Moorcock

[Stormcall]

The War Hound and the World's Pain - Michael Moorcock
I wont lie and say Michael Moorcock is grounded, odds are he was high as a kite writing his books, but he is the Satanic Buddhist to Tolkien's Christian Fictions.

I recommend "The War Hound and the World's Pain" it's the first book in the Von Bek series, and you should be able to get the whole series as one book. Any troop found in Moorcocks writing originates with him. (yes you'll find a few) However he mixes sci-fi and high fantasy in ways that make sense and feel cool, as in Heavy Metal music cool.

I love Moorcock, some of my favorite fantasy is his work. But his whole Law/Chaos/Balance cycle sounds pretty much exactly what the OP doesn't want in his fantasy.

[Shinrael]

I just love fantasy. I have a very vivid and expansive imagination and I just love fantasy. In all its aspects. The beautiful new lands to explore, the epic weapons and items, wonderful magical sources, heroes. I actually like mainstream fantasy where the hero is a badass and lives at the end, honestly. I find movies and all kinds of other shows very predictable, and if so, then I would at least like to watch something that will satisfy me at the end. But I do want to write a fantasy novel and when I made a few attempts I was always trying to make it more realistic as you said you did... I really hope I don't lose this love for fantasy. I can't really imagine that happening though. I just know that I won't ever lose my love for it, just like I will never get bored of WoW. I've been told so many times that I will get bored of it, for 6-7 years now. And yet I have been playing it for 8 years and I still love it. Thing is that I love the beauty of fantasy. I love art and music and fantasy has an unlimited potential in these 2 aspects.

I actually often browse DeviantArt looking for inspiration for the story I am writing. I've gathered several GBs of artwork in my folder. And those fantasy sceneries... they are just so beautiful. No way in hell I'll ever change my mind about it... You have my sympathy for having lost that same love for fantasy.

[Shrouded]

I've grown a bit tired of fantasy too, but only a certain overused trope - the Chosen Hero. I'm so sick of powerful "badass" heroes who are predestined to save the world.

[Deleted]

Very little Robert E. Howard is based around gods and such. Conan, Solomon Kane, Kull, Bran Mak Morn...OTOH, you ALSO aren't interested in heroes, battles, and that sort of thing, which kinda makes me think that you need to find another genre, cause this one isn't for you. Try sci-fi or something, cause wanting fantasy without ANY of the things you've complained about is like wanting an action movie, with no shooting, fighting, car chases, or explosions.

I'll admit I spoke abit too soon. I made a fair few contradictory statements in my original posts last night. I have no problem with sword, sandle and sorcerery concepts in fantasy, but I am somehow tired of them. The interesting thing is I've never been a fan of sci-fi guns or high-tech weaponry, really. In my earlier post I eluded to the fact that I've immersed myself in fantasy for so many years. And that's my main problem... I'm a bit tired of it. I don't hate fantasy FOR those things, but if they are done in a more interesting way that is new to me then I'm all for it.

@Stormcall, you'd be right about that.
@Silverrendy, in many respects I was exactly like you. I'm not saying it's inevitable you'll get tired of fantasy though. We're just different people.

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I don't quite know how to explain what I mean by grounded. I guess science fantasy is what I'd like. I've never looked into books in that genre though. I had an argument with a friend of mine who is the same age. It got a bit muddled in the end, but I had to keep saying I don't dislike fantasy, I just dislike one aspect of it. My main reasons for becoming tired of fantasy are the generic archetypes and the overused tropes in most books. My reason only reason for actively disliking fantasy is this notion of unexplained, mystical world-creating pantheon of gods. My friend essentially argued that if you don't like this aspect of fantasy then you can't really like fantasy, because almost all fantasy is intertwined with some sort of higher purpose in the form of a powerful being/s.

I argued for immersion as well. To summarise, I came to the conclusion that if gods exist then what the characters do, what they struggle for in the world, is all for nothing, because in the end it's all pointless. My friend argued that a character's struggle isn't necessarily always helped by the gods. That's true. However I asked that just because they might not intervene, does that make them acceptable? I honestly think employing gods is cheap. Gods are deus ex machinas. Gods are just there to give some thin veil of black and white, good versus evil morality. Eru the One/Morgoth is tediously Christian. Sargeras is tainted by the corruption throughout the cosmos. All of these things are a bit bland and you can't relate to them.

What I'm for is a "grounded" reality, in which there might be a magic system, but it isn't explained a way by pure spiritual nonsense. Ideally I'd actually just prefer if this magic was actually an effect of something in the natural world, say a plant that has healing powers. This might just be because of its biology, and not some imbued power of some goddess of healing. The groundedness would come from the perspective of the human/hobbit (or whatever else race) is to be told. Yes, fantasy has this of course, but they will often invoke this higher power to get them out of trouble.

I'm rambling, really. It's obviously quite hard to write about this because it's a vast subject with many different aspects to it.

[Deleted]

I'll admit I spoke abit too soon. I made a fair few contradictory statements in my original posts last night. I have no problem with sword, sandle and sorcerery concepts in fantasy, but I am somehow tired of them. The interesting thing is I've never been a fan of sci-fi guns or high-tech weaponry, really. In my earlier post I eluded to the fact that I've immersed myself in fantasy for so many years. And that's my main problem... I'm a bit tired of it. I don't hate fantasy FOR those things, but if they are done in a more interesting way that is new to me then I'm all for it.

@Stormcall, you'd be right about that.
@Silverrendy, in many respects I was exactly like you. I'm not saying it's inevitable you'll get tired of fantasy though. We're just different people.

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I don't quite know how to explain what I mean by grounded. I guess science fantasy is what I'd like. I've never looked into books in that genre though. I had an argument with a friend of mine who is the same age. It got a bit muddled in the end, but I had to keep saying I don't dislike fantasy, I just dislike one aspect of it. My main reasons for becoming tired of fantasy are the generic archetypes and the overused tropes in most books. My reason only reason for actively disliking fantasy is this notion of unexplained, mystical world-creating pantheon of gods. My friend essentially argued that if you don't like this aspect of fantasy then you can't really like fantasy, because almost all fantasy is intertwined with some sort of higher purpose in the form of a powerful being/s.

I argued for immersion as well. To summarise, I came to the conclusion that if gods exist then what the characters do, what they struggle for in the world, is all for nothing, because in the end it's all pointless. My friend argued that a character's struggle isn't necessarily always helped by the gods. That's true. However I asked that just because they might not intervene, does that make them acceptable? I honestly think employing gods is cheap. Gods are deus ex machinas. Gods are just there to give some thin veil of black and white, good versus evil morality. Eru the One/Morgoth is tediously Christian. Sargeras is tainted by the corruption throughout the cosmos. All of these things are a bit bland and you can't relate to them.

What I'm for is a "grounded" reality, in which there might be a magic system, but it isn't explained a way by pure spiritual nonsense. Ideally I'd actually just prefer if this magic was actually an effect of something in the natural world, say a plant that has healing powers. This might just be because of its biology, and not some imbued power of some goddess of healing. The groundedness would come from the perspective of the human/hobbit (or whatever else race) is to be told. Yes, fantasy has this of course, but they will often invoke this higher power to get them out of trouble.

I'm rambling, really. It's obviously quite hard to write about this because it's a vast subject with many different aspects to it.

Ever read the Malazan Book of the Fallen? For someone who was heavily into fantasy I guess you have but if not it might work for you. It does have magic, gods, armies and so forth but it's a much more down to earth approach than I've found in other series.

It's well worth a crack. It's huge though and far too much to talk about in this post but might be worth you looking it up and having a read of the synopsis to see if it's something you might be interested in.

[Deleted]

You might like the Witcher saga.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher

It doesn't really deal with godlike heroes and the like and there isn't really a good or bad side to the world. Everyone fights for what they think is right and there's a lot of morally gray area's. Unfortunately not all of the books have been translated in English yet but there's fan translates to be found if you like the books that are already out there.

[starlord]

have you considered historical fiction?

[King Shark]

Sara King has a series that I think fits your bill. Guardians of The First Realm, two books so far. It's fantasy, but, in my opinion, very atypical of the genre. And I don't really go for fantasy at all (more into military, spy, and science fiction) but I couldn't stop reading these two books.