how hard is normal in comparison?

[Deleted]

hey,

so my guild are still stuck at normal bracken and tectus yes even now, most are 645+ and we jsut cant kill anything past butcher.. .and stil lstruggle on butcher.

normal is SoO flex, in SoO we had very very few problems progressing through the raid, onto normal was just a step up just a tad more difficult, we never got to HC and never killed garry normal either (4%!!!!).

so have they ramped up highmaul normal (flex)? it feels like trying to jump straight into heroic (normal) and sometimes even mythic (heroic).

also even pugs cant seen to get past the butcher, every group i go to (about 2+ a day) just wipe wipe wipe, i honestly dont think its me pally healer 654 ilvl always top healing meter or 2nd, follow tacs dont die, etc.

thoughts on this? and please try not to comment generic "your group sucks".

[Ralahast]

Brackenspore is really dependent on movement and moss management, if you arent spamming blue shrooms (and using every one) youre doing it wrong. Have your gunners watch a video or two on moss management, if done right its a dps increase.

Tectus, when are you lusting? Are you stacking all the adds all the time? Ranged need to be disciplined to not place bad pillars especially during the phases with motes up.

[Mazaxist]

hey,

so my guild are still stuck at normal bracken and tectus yes even now, most are 645+ and we jsut cant kill anything past butcher.. .and stil lstruggle on butcher.

normal is SoO flex, in SoO we had very very few problems progressing through the raid, onto normal was just a step up just a tad more difficult, we never got to HC and never killed garry normal either (4%!!!!).

so have they ramped up highmaul normal (flex)? it feels like trying to jump straight into heroic (normal) and sometimes even mythic (heroic).

also even pugs cant seen to get past the butcher, every group i go to (about 2+ a day) just wipe wipe wipe, i honestly dont think its me pally healer 654 ilvl always top healing meter or 2nd, follow tacs dont die, etc.

thoughts on this? and please try not to comment generic "your group sucks".

Just need to practice more. It took my guild maybe 30-40 wipes to developer a good strategy for tectus. there are strategies online on youtube - all your raiders should watch it to understand the mechanics better.

overall i would say normal is relatively easy until the last boss. last boss is where my guild is stuck, we just dont have enough dps

[Chiquihuite]

Compared to SoO flex, Highmaul "Normal" feels much harder than it probably should be. (Yes guys, I know it's not "hard". That's not the point.)

Personally, I think Heroic feels about right (as the equivalent to MoP "Normal", once you have some gear). It's just that there's not enough of a gap between Normal and Heroic. The number of guilds who go 6/7 N and then do most or all of Heroic before Normal Imperator is a pretty strong testament to that, IMO.

[Rosstafa]

I do think Normal Tectus is a little harder than Flexible SoO was, but if you're having that much trouble maybe you just need to be a bit more critical of individual players, see who isn't pulling their weight. With 645 gear you should really be able to kill at least the first 6 bosses on normal. But her is a little demanding healing wise, but if your raid is coordinated and you're pulling out the necessary numbers, then you should be able to do it. Everyone should be doing between 15-18k DPS, or they aren't doing something right. If people are dying it's down to either healing or not dealing with mechanics quickly. Best to look at logs and analyse things a little more. You're obviously not a serious progress guild (not an insult, it's fine!) but if you want to kill bosses, you have to use the tools available.

So yeah, check out individual players or list your tactics on each boss here so we can see what the issue is.

[Kazuchika]

normal is SoO flex, in SoO we had very very few problems progressing through the raid, onto normal was just a step up just a tad more difficult, we never got to HC and never killed garry normal either (4%!!!!).

This is the first mistake people making when comparing Normal HM to Flex Siege. They're not even on the same level considering you had 2 previous tiers worth of gear + 1 tier of valor upgrades, legendary meta/cloak, AND the wings themselves were staggered in release. That gear let you carry suboptimal players which is something you cannot do if you're struggling on even the entry level bosses.

We had the same issue going into normal. I had to bench a few people and pull a few others aside and be like "look you need to get your shit together this is what you need to work on". If that leadership is not there quite frankly you're never going to get anywhere because all the gear in the world won't teach stupid people not to stand in fire.

If a majority of your raid is 645+ and you can't get clean kills on Butcher then people need to be called out. If that doesn't happen then maybe it's time to think about a change of scenery if you want to actually progress.

Does N HM seem more difficult than Flex Siege? Yeah. It happens when you don't have 2 tiers worth of gear to back you up.

[Hildrande]

The jump in difficulty between LFR and next higher tier has certainly increased.

Making it harder makes the content last longer too.

[Mascotte]

Without logs this will be hard to judge..
Mechanically you should have no trouble with Butcher if you can manage to get there.
Yeah the first boss isn't insanely complex either but Butcher is little more then a dps check.
With all of your raid in 645+ that really shouldn't be much of an issue either.
Brack and Tect both require a better execution from your raid, so if you are struggling with Butcher mechanics its no real surprise you are having issues there.

Dont try to compare it to SoO, its a whole new ballgame right now.

Try to get a log from your latest Butcher kills, might give 'us' some more insight.

[Airlick]

I hardly see the difference between normal and LFR. The bosses roll over just as well. Same goes for HC, with only Imperator requiring some thought in both normal and HC.

Tips? Normal is 90% about the leader. With proper calls most of your group can come to the raid not knowing tactics for a single boss and still not fail. Call when and where to move, call burst phases, call target switches... Do everything to make the fight flow as smoothly as possible. Your group will still have to know the basics, like where to run with Crystalline Barage on Tectus, but there is nothing that requires real thought or organisation in normal mode (and pretty much same goes for heroic).

As for your raiders - make sure they DO learn tactics, but more importantly, make sure they know their respective classes. Someone pulling 10k dps is a deadweight, with current normal/heroic scaling you're probably better off getting rid of them, unless they are assigned an important duty, like managing the green stuff at Brackenspore, and they are doing it well. But if that's not the case and they are not interested in learning the fights and their class, then why should you be carrying them?

But yeah, most of all, your raid leader probably needs to work on his management of the group. Proper calls alone would make your fights go much easier.

[Mascotte]

unless they are assigned an important duty, like managing the green stuff at Brackenspore, and they are doing it well.

If they are doing it well they should be doing more then 10k simply due to the damage done buff they get from doing it well.

Agree with the rest of your post tho, most (pug) leaders do little more then inviting/distributing loot nowadays.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

I'd say Normal is 20 percent hard than 5.4 "flex" but still at least 25 percent easier than 6.0 Heroic.
Brackenspore can be tricky even on Normal but Tectus should be a very easy encounter. Then again if you couldn't kill garrosh normal last expansion its likely your group simply doesn't have the mindset for progression raiding.
I will submit that the difficulty of normal is higher than it likely should be, but regardless, the reasons top end bosses are "difficult" is mostly contingent around moving from dangerous mechanics while being able to maintain very high DPS uptime.
In normal, this is not the case on any boss.
If you are wiping, just bring another healer to try and make up for the mistakes your group is making.
If you still can't do it, then you'll have to trim the fat, which is sad to say about a normal group! Some people just aren't able to dedicate the time to raiding though.

I've met a lot of people who simply don't press buttons every global. They just don't understand the process.

[Nawdle]

Normal HM definitely harder than flex SoO. I'm inclined to agree with most others, though, OP. If you aren't killing these bosses by now you need to sit down, have a look at some logs and find out who's causing the problems.

Those fights aren't especially demanding (my guild's performed poorly this tier and we 1 shot both in heroic gear week 1). To be honest with you though, if it isn't quite obvious to you what the problems are from sitting through attempts, you may need a new raid leader.

[Hildrande]

Us > casuals.

All you need to know :-P

[Ilfayt]

One thing I've noticed is there seems to be a lot of fights that have '1-2' people doing something pivotal for the whole group. Butcher we've got the people stepping in and out for most tactics, Brackenspore has the flamethrowers, Tectus has the Crystalline Barrage target(s later). Most of the normal groups I've been in fail because of, well not someone failing at their job but not being, shall we say, 'perfect'. Clearing most of the moss, but not adjusting for where you are going for example. Or stepping out a stack too late in the enrage phase of Butcher, and so forth.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

If you're struggling on normal butcher at 645 ilvl it is because either your players are bad or your strat is bad. Figure out which it is and fix it.

[Stormspellz]

in comparison to soo it depends on when you did it, either way highmaul is on the tougher side. If you your guild started soo 6months after release it will be night and day in difficulty due to the gear handouts and raid nerfs.

[smana7]

One thing I've noticed is there seems to be a lot of fights that have '1-2' people doing something pivotal for the whole group. Butcher we've got the people stepping in and out for most tactics, Brackenspore has the flamethrowers, Tectus has the Crystalline Barrage target(s later). Most of the normal groups I've been in fail because of, well not someone failing at their job but not being, shall we say, 'perfect'. Clearing most of the moss, but not adjusting for where you are going for example. Or stepping out a stack too late in the enrage phase of Butcher, and so forth.

This is very true.

Been pugging heroic Butcher since the week or week after it came out and most of the wipes have been people messing up the stacks.
It's much better now since people know what to do.

I'm guessing that the people pugging normal now have just graduated from LFR and will take some time to know the strats apart from not stepping into fire.

As for your guild OP, if you have Butcher "strat" down i.e. the 2 guys moving in and out you should have no problem killing it unless your DPS or healers are slacking.
Brackenspore requires some coordination. Key is timing of popping shrooms for free raid heal and dps.
Tectus is straight forward once you got the red gas thing controlled.

[Lavathing]

This is the first mistake people making when comparing Normal HM to Flex Siege. They're not even on the same level considering you had 2 previous tiers worth of gear + 1 tier of valor upgrades, legendary meta/cloak, AND the wings themselves were staggered in release. That gear let you carry suboptimal players which is something you cannot do if you're struggling on even the entry level bosses.

This. People say that Normal Highmaul is far too hard because they compare it to SoO post-nerfs, with full purple gear that is 4/4 upgraded, and had a staggered release. The content is tuned very similarly to Flex SoO, its just the players aren't.

[melodramocracy]

hey,

so my guild are still stuck at normal bracken and tectus yes even now, most are 645+ and we jsut cant kill anything past butcher.. .and stil lstruggle on butcher.

normal is SoO flex, in SoO we had very very few problems progressing through the raid, onto normal was just a step up just a tad more difficult, we never got to HC and never killed garry normal either (4%!!!!).

so have they ramped up highmaul normal (flex)? it feels like trying to jump straight into heroic (normal) and sometimes even mythic (heroic).

also even pugs cant seen to get past the butcher, every group i go to (about 2+ a day) just wipe wipe wipe, i honestly dont think its me pally healer 654 ilvl always top healing meter or 2nd, follow tacs dont die, etc.

thoughts on this? and please try not to comment generic "your group sucks".

What's killing you on each of these encounters? That info would be helpful. A bit of everything, or are you getting to about the same % each time?

[Koshka]

I do thank Normal Highmaul is tuned to a higher difficulty than Flex SoO, but not as hard as Normal SoO. I did flex SoO soon after it came out with people who didn't massively outgear it. They could easily do the first wing, could do the second wing in a couple of tries and struggled with the third wing. Later, of course, everyone blasted through it.

That said...I do think your team should probably be doing a bit better with 645+ gear. In the raid team I am in most people are about that gear level, with a few people have gear as low as 642 and a few having gear over 550. We are 6/7 N, 1/7 H. We just started working on Imperator this week.

We easily killed Kargath and Butcher the first week, but struggled on Brackenspore until we worked out how to better keep the blue mushrooms alive and really used them. Once we figured it out that was easy, but it did take a night or so to figure out. On Tectus, it was basically positioning that we had to learn. Watching videos does help I think for those who struggle with learning the mechanics.