Which is stronger Blood DK or BrM Monk as a main tank?

[Sonnillon]

In some fights I feel that my bear is not good enough due to lack of utility, so I am looking for an optional tanking class for myself, which would synergyse well with my present raid setup of:
tanks: prot pala
healer: mw monk, 3x resto druid, 2x resto shaman, disc and holy priest
dps: 3x hunter, 1 boomy, 2 retri, 1 rogue, 1 warrior, 1 dk, 1 mage, 2 warlocks and some other's as well.
I have narrowed my selection to Blood or BrM and now am interesting to know which one in your experience brings more to the raid and my setup and is relatively easy to learn to play and is fun to play on top.

If I would purely base my selection of gear and items I would say that Blood would be the best option, cause the demand for plate and strenght items is not that huge as it is for leather and agility. Has decent survival and self healing when played well.

BrM however is excellent to have in fights with lot of kiting (Kegsmash ftw...) and movement. Not sure how good BrM is on self sustaining.

Just by reading the icy-veins guides for both of the specs, DK seems bit more complicated with the rune management, but in all fairness chi of BrM isn't that easy to handle as well I suppose.
Yes, I know that there are prot pala and prot warrior as well, but I am not drawn to my warrior (fun to play, but just didn't get a good feel of her pre-expansion) and only spec of paladin I enjoy is retri.

But as I haven't played none of the 2 nor do I have that much time to level all tanking classes to 100, so I would like some help in selecting a good tank as the second tank for my raid, based on your experience with the 2.

[Dracodraco]

Brewmasters get to do a lot of derpy tactics due to kiting and teleporting and the likes. That said, blood DK brings a lot more to the table in an undergeared raid if the player behind the character is good - learning to time your DS and the myriad of personal cooldowns, using AMS to block debuffs and key damage bursts etc makes DK's very sustainable. Brewmasters has decent upkeep (far better than druids/warriors), but they lack cooldowns compared to other tanks (except maybe bear).

That said, you're running with 3x resto druids, two priests and a MW monk, and 3x paladins+ a warrior, which means you have a *ton* of external cooldowns at your disposal in your general raid setups, which can make up for what the monk lacks. Ultimately, you'll be able to provide more utility with the monk and it's kiting/teleportation abilities, but you'll be a better "main" tank as a DK.

[cptaylor38]

I'm going to give my monk another chance at brewmaster later in the week, but just from playstyle alone I think it's easier and more fun to be a dk tank. Dk's do have a crap ton of cooldowns though.

I just get kind of burnt out on my brewmaster. lol

[Deleted]

Brewmasters are really fun to play, but in the end that's subjective.
They're both great when played well and have a lot of defensive utility, as well as control over incoming damage.
Where DKs have AMS and Bloodshield for spike proteection, Brewmasters have diffuse magic (talent) and guard, a huge shield on a 30s CD.
(300k+ when taking serious damage)

[Anzen]

I'd say DK, Monk's have some niche gimmicks but DK's are just overall stronger imo.

[Sonnillon]

The amount of healers varies, I just listed what on a "very good day" I have along.

The magic (all well all around damage) reduction lack on bear is one of the reason why I am seeking another class, and both Monk and DK have ample choice for that. Kiting is just a bonus, it could've been useful (if I look back at older tiers, but that wasn't the reason of lack of progression).

Monks Guard seems weak compared to Bone Shield, just due to the fact that the 26k damage it absorbs (at least the base absorb), while Bone Shield is 20% reduction with 6 charges. 26k damage is roughly the amount what boss does anyhow leaving a cap between when it can be applied again when it goes off in one single hit, while Bone Shield lasts for 6 hits. If Guard's absorb goes bigger with resolve or some other stat, then it could seem more viable.

While Difuse Magic with 1 sec longer lasting and larger protection seems more viable then AMS, although with AMS you won't get some stuff (though as tank I doubt that there are much things which you can avoid like that)...

On the reduction and shielding side both specs seem equal, one has one strong thing, other has another. While I think that Blood has superior healing capabilities compared to monk.

How tough it is to "master" the rune management compared to the chi aka how big is the learning curve? Which class performs better at lower gear level? At what level can you tell are you any good at the class or just plainly suck and/or get a feel on how much the class is good enough for you?

[Anzen]

How tough it is to "master" the rune management compared to the chi aka how big is the learning curve? Which class performs better at lower gear level? At what level can you tell are you any good at the class or just plainly suck and/or get a feel on how much the class is good enough for you?

The only Rune Management Blood requires is tracking Blood Runes so as to know whether you should Blood Boil or not. I play both specs and with the exception of 'timing your Death Strikes to coalesce with incoming damage' Blood has a low skill cap.

Blood also performs considerably better at lower gear levels.

[Blur4stuff]

i raided as all 3 monk specs at one time or another during MoP. after that fast gameplay i couldn't stand my DK in WoD. the downtime with abilities feel like centuries. i didn't feel nearly this bad in MoP with the DK. maybe it's just a matter of more haste/ms etc...

[handofdesu]

The amount of healers varies, I just listed what on a "very good day" I have along.

The magic (all well all around damage) reduction lack on bear is one of the reason why I am seeking another class, and both Monk and DK have ample choice for that. Kiting is just a bonus, it could've been useful (if I look back at older tiers, but that wasn't the reason of lack of progression).

Monks Guard seems weak compared to Bone Shield, just due to the fact that the 26k damage it absorbs (at least the base absorb), while Bone Shield is 20% reduction with 6 charges. 26k damage is roughly the amount what boss does anyhow leaving a cap between when it can be applied again when it goes off in one single hit, while Bone Shield lasts for 6 hits. If Guard's absorb goes bigger with resolve or some other stat, then it could seem more viable.

While Difuse Magic with 1 sec longer lasting and larger protection seems more viable then AMS, although with AMS you won't get some stuff (though as tank I doubt that there are much things which you can avoid like that)...

On the reduction and shielding side both specs seem equal, one has one strong thing, other has another. While I think that Blood has superior healing capabilities compared to monk.

How tough it is to "master" the rune management compared to the chi aka how big is the learning curve? Which class performs better at lower gear level? At what level can you tell are you any good at the class or just plainly suck and/or get a feel on how much the class is good enough for you?

Guard got buffed - imo it's the best 30s cd atm.

It's base absorb went from 9*AP to 18*AP, further increased by up to 3.4x with Resolve.

Looking at my most recent run, which was a normal (which means lower Resolve) I had a 666 ilvl and averaged 270k per guard on Tectus, while co-tank (also a brewmaster) had 645 ilvl and averaged 136k per guard on Tectus. Timing Guard for when you have higher Resolve makes a big difference in the size of the Absorb.

There's nothing in Highmaul Heroic (I don't raid mythic, so no comment there) that I've felt the Brewmaster kit is insufficient on.

I've heard a lot of qq about Brackenspore from the people I've tanked with though.

[Sonnillon]

Both classes seem something I would want to try out, but I just cannot fit the time to level both of them in -_-'.

Anyone have any idea or experience of which they can tell at which character level you get a decent overview what the class is about and how good you are playing it? I assume it somewhere close to level 90? Or does running certain raids/dungeons solo give you a better overview. I just don't want to spend time leveling something to 100 (means garrison and shit as well) and then finding out that, shit... should've gone with other...

I want to be useful to the raid as well, outside the pray of DoC proc for CR/heal if needed. Guardian just lacks the general raid utility to help other's out, which makes me sad.

[Tanthalas]

I am tanking for years now and already tried both dk and monk in Draenor.

Playstyle wise, nothing beats monk (of course it's subjective). It's one of the most fun classes to play - very mobile, fast and reactive.
There's nothing hard in mastering DK - rune tracking what? You need survival - you use blood rune for blood tap, overwise - bloodboil. Serious business.
Monk, on the other hand, has a higher entering treshhold - you may feel squishy sometimes, until you get a hand on class dynamics. But it shouldn't take a lot of time anyway.

Raidwise, I also love it more than DK, and since my co-tank is DK, I can be objective on comparing them - monk takes a bit less damage overall and easier to heal (from my healers' opinions).
Forget about self-sustainable DKs - mastery is nerfed to the ground and you won't see Pandaria-like 300% absorbs, it's 35-45% off the death strike heal even in a great gear. And DS heal itself is not that powerful as well - you NEED to be healed up, just as monk does.
Monk has a bit higher dps on most fights and Touch of death shines on several encounters; but DK's blood boil aoe is just insane - say hello to Tectus.

And what is more important, monk gives you additional possibilities like never moving a raid on imperator phase 3, kiting adds on ko'ragh while melees are finishing off last percents, etc. And I'm sure, more will come in next instance. I don't say it's impossible to do otherwise, but it is clearly easier in most cases.

But, in the end, tank balance is close to perfect at the moment, Blizzard done a really good - so you are free to choose any class, whatever you like.

PS Except challenge mods. DKs are totally dominating them because of aoe getoverhere.

[Deleted]

I main a Blood DK tank with a BRM monk as my main-alt.
I clear normal and HC content on both toons each week.
Im on the same server as you and will try and get a hold of you later tonight.

The magic (all well all around damage) reduction lack on bear is one of the reason why I am seeking another class, and both Monk and DK have ample choice for that. Kiting is just a bonus, it could've been useful (if I look back at older tiers, but that wasn't the reason of lack of progression).

DK is stronger here due to the selfhealing from Death strike.
Monks are currently lacking on the selfhealing compared to DKs.
You can micro-manage Monks guard to absorb magic damage (spellcasts and such) and get a better absorb from Monks, but DKs just Death strike it and heal up.
(see below for Monk guards)

Monks Guard seems weak compared to Bone Shield, just due to the fact that the 26k damage it absorbs (at least the base absorb), while Bone Shield is 20% reduction with 6 charges. 26k damage is roughly the amount what boss does anyhow leaving a cap between when it can be applied again when it goes off in one single hit, while Bone Shield lasts for 6 hits. If Guard's absorb goes bigger with resolve or some other stat, then it could seem more viable.

Monk Guard scale with resolve, i get like 300k guards when i tank.
I have no opinon on the Guard vs Boneshield matter.

While Difuse Magic with 1 sec longer lasting and larger protection seems more viable then AMS, although with AMS you won't get some stuff (though as tank I doubt that there are much things which you can avoid like that)...

AMS has shorter CD and you glyph it usally as blood DK for even shorter CD, so it evens out.
AMS also gives you runic power when it absorbs damage.
Diffuse magic is a godsend on some bosses, and has it uses.
I like DK´s AMS more here.

On the reduction and shielding side both specs seem equal, one has one strong thing, other has another. While I think that Blood has superior healing capabilities compared to monk.

Correct on the healing aspect here.
Regarding the reduction and shielding aspect i have no opinon.

How tough it is to "master" the rune management compared to the chi aka how big is the learning curve? Which class performs better at lower gear level? At what level can you tell are you any good at the class or just plainly suck and/or get a feel on how much the class is good enough for you?

Runemanagement is easier to master then Chi-spendage.
Blood DK performs better at low gear level currently.
I cant answer your question about what level/gearlevel you know if you suck or can get feel about how they perform under your control.

For me i noticed around 620-ish ilvl when doing heroic dungeons that blood DK really was easier then monk.
I leveld my monk first but decided to level my DK shortly after when i saw how a DK could rush thru dungeons.

I will try and get in touch with you later tonight as i said and can answer more question if you like.

[Sygil]

I'd take a DK over a monk 99% of the time.

[Sonnillon]

But, in the end, tank balance is close to perfect at the moment, Blizzard done a really good - so you are free to choose any class, whatever you like.

I disagree with this statement. Playing the underdog class, which is Guardian atmo and I just feel that we bring nothing to the table, maybe other then decent AoE and 3x interrupts (if talented/glyphed).
As for playing anything I like... Well I would love to do that, would like to have both on level 100, geared and ready for raiding so I could choose on the go, but considering the time I can invest into anything else outside of raiding, I don't see it unfortunately happening. So I have to choose.

In either case, will wait for bit more of various opinions from experience before I make the decision to choose one or the other. But thank you so far for the discussion.

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I'd take a DK over a monk 99% of the time.

Why do you prefer DK is I may ask?

[willemh]

I disagree with this statement. Playing the underdog class, which is Guardian atmo and I just feel that we bring nothing to the table, maybe other then decent AoE and 3x interrupts (if talented/glyphed).
As for playing anything I like... Well I would love to do that, would like to have both on level 100, geared and ready for raiding so I could choose on the go, but considering the time I can invest into anything else outside of raiding, I don't see it unfortunately happening. So I have to choose.

In either case, will wait for bit more of various opinions from experience before I make the decision to choose one or the other. But thank you so far for the discussion.

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Why do you prefer DK is I may ask?

Are you planning on cutting-edge progression raiding or world/server first challenge mode racing? If the answer is no, there really is no reason to reroll between the tanks atm. Guardian druids are excellent tanks. They have far more mobility then a dk/paladin, and deal more damage then a warrior tank to name a few advantages.

[Raiju]

I disagree with this statement. Playing the underdog class, which is Guardian atmo and I just feel that we bring nothing to the table, maybe other then decent AoE and 3x interrupts (if talented/glyphed).
As for playing anything I like... Well I would love to do that, would like to have both on level 100, geared and ready for raiding so I could choose on the go, but considering the time I can invest into anything else outside of raiding, I don't see it unfortunately happening. So I have to choose.

I've tanked with druid, paladin, warrior, and dk (and am playing a dk tank atm) - we're a little further progressed than your guild (been 6/7 hc for a few weeks now but had christmas break, looking at mythic kargath/hc imperator) and I can say 100% that any tank deaths on all the content we've experienced so far were tanks not using cooldowns (even their active mitigation) for heavy damage periods, or not making use of talents well. I have no doubt it may get more difficult in mythic, but I doubt my guild is going to see more than 2/7 mythic before we're romping around in blackrock so the hard hitting tank fights later in the instance (including 3 optionals) won't come into play until we're a lot more geared. I guess imperator hits a fair whack harder than the rest but not unbearably so and having good aoe is always an advantage on that fight really.

I can see why interrupts aren't a huge boon, but decent aoe definitely is. Naturally one of the blood dk's big strengths is the massive aoe damage blood boil offers, although I feel will be nerfed at latest when they add more "melee" back into our play. Not that the nerf would be unjustified, just that I would expect it.

I haven't have the opportunity to tank with a BrM, but at least for mar'gok its appealing depending on who your other tank is, as dk's are much rooted by p3 mark of chaos (if you already have someone to handle the root mark then dk brings dat aoe) I'd say more important is to look at BrF fights though, since that is where the majority of time will be spent in 1 months~ time, when your new tank is geared. I personally haven't looked much so can't say either way tehre

[melzas]

I play both blood and brm in WoD and I just enjoy BrM tanking more. It's just more complicated, has more unique tools and is very dynamic, blood dk feels like indestructible behemoth while brewmaster is more of a skirmisher with lots of potential (which was most likely a design goal so got to give Blizzard that they did a good job about class 'feeling' or how they like to call it - 'fantasy').

But if you are mostly interested in raiding only, and you already have a set team, you should probably go with what matches it better. You say you would get less competition for loot as plate user, so that might be good enough reason to roll with blood DK.

[Herris]

Our raids two tanks are a DK and monk. Both are skilled players, do good dps, but the DK takes significantly more damage than the monk does. That said on some fights like imp, the DK tops DPS and tanks all the adds in the intermission because the monk can't get aggro. So they fit different roles pretty well.

But if I had to choose one, monk every time.

[PowerGamez]

Both are fine and in good spots. DK is easier to master and play well.

[Life-Binder]

blood DK has pretty big downtime, if you don't like that - something to consider