Points or Rolls?

[aaremtula]

With the tier raid coming in the next month or so, what is a more appropriate way of distributing loot.

We currently have 20-22 players who attend Normal/heroic Highmaul on a weekly basis and loot is MS > OS (random 100 roll) I was thinking of suggesting EPGP for BRF and possible Mythic Highmaul.

Whats your guild doing about loot being distributed equally between raiders?

Cheers,

[Vinictus]

Personal loot

[aaremtula]

Personal loot

not a fan of personal tbh.

[Alroxas]

Whats your guild doing about loot being distributed equally between raiders?

Originally a modified Suicide Kings system on paper but we're transitioning to Konfer SK system because the addon makes it easier to administrate.

DKP systems can be a bit more complicated but gives you the ability to reward (or punish) people for good/bad behavior both inside and outside of raid.

One that is important is to have transparency in the system so that people can clearly see how the system is working. This should help limit loot drama.

Also when moving into BRF, we're thinking of moving to a two list KSK system (one exclusive for armor tokens and the second one for everything else).

[Deleted]

Personal loot

This. It is the solution for all kind of loot drama. No need to track kill points and raid attendence, etc. If normal MAIN > OFF and common sense don't work for your raid just switch to personal.

[Zlebar]

You should be doing loot council or EPGP if you are a serious guild. Those are pretty much your only 2 options, "rolls" is such a shitty way to do loot and can often leave good players with bad luck and a lower Ilvl. EPGP is the best way, unless you are a crazy progress guild in which you should 100% be min maxing with loot council. EPGP helps players by forcing people to bid mainly on BiS items because the first time you waste DKP or overbid on something you feel like an idiot when that amazing piece drops and you have to pass on it, or get out bid.

[aaremtula]

You should be doing loot council or EPGP if you are a serious guild.

I wouldn't consider us a 'serious/hardcore' guild, although we do efficiently progress through content. I would just like the current raiders to be awarded fairly with the time and effort put into raiding. Loot council sounds decent, although discussing who should receive the cloth helm would most likely end up with 5-10 mins of extra downtime after a boss kill. Seems like EPGP would be the way to go.

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Shahad]

We use the EPGP addon for people to roll on stuff, without using the EPGP point system. The actual handing out of loot happens through loot council, based mostly on ilvl difference (the EPGP lootmaster addon shows you the gear everyone who rolled for an item has in that slot, so it's quite handy) and overall raid throughput increase. Sometimes we prioritize one of the role groups (tanks, melee, ranged, healers) for specific fights. Seems like the best system IMO.

[Tolstyj]

We use the EPGP addon for people to roll on stuff, without using the EPGP point system. The actual handing out of loot happens through loot council, based mostly on ilvl difference (the EPGP lootmaster addon shows you the gear everyone who rolled for an item has in that slot, so it's quite handy) and overall raid throughput increase. Sometimes we prioritize one of the role groups (tanks, melee, ranged, healers) for specific fights. Seems like the best system IMO.

Doing same thing.

[Radish Spirit]

You should be doing loot council or EPGP if you are a serious guild.

The problem is, 99% of people think they are a "serious guild," but they're not. If you're not World top 2000 or so, MS > OS works just fine. You're not setting any records and nobody is going to flock to your guild because you're 14567th instead of 15732nd.

Loot council in almost every guild turns in to "Long term members and friends get gear first. Oh, and anyone that an Officer or the GM thinks has a cute voice in vent."

If you do manage to find the rare council that actually does things right, the tiny bit of extra progression you get from it is almost never worth the extra time and effort.

Most guilds in this game would be a hell of a lot more tolerable if people would just admit they're mediocre and be happy with it and not pretend they're some world-class competitive raiding team.

[FobManX]

Loot council assuming your LC is objective and unbiased is the absolute best method of loot distribution. It may not be the most time efficient though, especially early in tiers when EVERYONE is going up for every piece of loot.

[Zyranthian]

Loot council is great, unless you're the guy running the raids and having to actually do the loot. It ends up being a lot of work to keep it fair, tracking attendance, tracking who has got loot recently and who hasn't, who the piece of the biggest upgrade for, etc. Hope you enjoy spreadsheets if you plan to run a loot council!

Personally I go with EPGP, raid leading is work enough without piling more on your plate and just burning yourself out. Its mostly self regulating, because the people who are putting in the effort and the attendance will have the best shot at loot, which is basically the core of what you're trying to do with a fair loot system, you're trying to give people rewards proportional to the effort they put in. Then as people get gear, they'll be lower priority to get the next piece of gear which ticks that box and takes having to track who got gear recently off your plate. EPGP Lootmaster will even tell you the piece each person who wants the loot currently has in that slot so you can make decisions based on that info if you wish, or what we do, charge discounted GP if the item is an 6 ilvl or less upgrade to their current item.

I just find it the smoothest and most drama-free way to distribute loot. Not only is it fast and efficient, but it heads off any complaints of corruption/favouritism/unfairness that inevitably arise when you're doing loot council (even when you're doing loot council 100% fairly, people will find a way to cause drama). You're probably going to have the odd person here or there who wont like it, but you know what they say, you can't please all the people all the time. Do what works for the majority, what is best for your guild/raid and just as importantly, what is best for you. Happy raid leader = happy raid!

[Kanadei]

This. It is the solution for all kind of loot drama. No need to track kill points and raid attendence, etc. If normal MAIN > OFF and common sense don't work for your raid just switch to personal.

It removes drama sure, but it also creates a lot of waste in items going to people who already have them, who it is a tiny upgrade for, or is just horribly itemized.

There is no way to address gear discrepancies between raiders except for blind luck and patience, if someone (like happened to me) decides you have too many warriors and voluntarily rerolls another class - they are going to be behind everyone else in gear for the foreseeable future and the whole raid suffers.

Sure, personal is convenient because you don't have to do any work in leading the raid - I get that. But let's not pretend it's a perfect solution.

For the record, my group works on rolls + honor system. We roll, but in 4/5 cases the loot goes to the person with the worst item voluntarily. Sometimes when you treat adults like adults they act like them too. I also keep track of who gets what so that in the very rare event that loot council is needed (for instance, giving a tank a shield over a glad war) we have evidence of who got what.

If we were a bleeding edge mythic raid, I'd probably have one person loot council everything.

[Deleted]

My guild is made up of friendly adults, so we have zero issues using a simple 3 person loot council. Item drops, people who want it post what they currently have, guild leader appoints three random people (who do not have a vested interest in who gets the item) who jump into their own channel on TS and quickly discuss who should get it. It's really up to the loot council to decide, they don't have to report what was discussed, but the general rule of thumb is people should be rewarded for passing on items and attendance. There's also a wishlist backing the system, every raider selected one BiS item for every slot before we started raiding, and people who have an item on their list are prioritized.

While this system could lead to drama in theory, it has never happened. Usually, people are very generous with their passes and the LC is always fair. A lot of the guild are IRL friends (and I'm not), but I've still been handed tons of items. This way, people who work for the guild are rewarded while the raid is still optimized, leading to a lot of loyal players.

I would definitely recommend it for any guild with a friendly adult atmosphere.

[Radish Spirit]

guild leader appoints three random people (who do not have a vested interest in who gets the item) who jump into their own channel on TS and quickly discuss who should get it. It's really up to the loot council to decide.

Uhh, no. In that super weird and fucked up situation, it's up to the guild leader to decide. All he has to do is appoint 3 "random" people who he knows will make the choice he wants.

Sounds like a very round-about way to make sure the GM's friends get gear, which is what most loot councils boil down to.

I would definitely recommend it for any guild with a friendly adult atmosphere.

If the atmosphere is friendly and adult, why not just roll on gear? What possible downside could you imagine to justify this ridiculous suggestion?

/roll and pass out loot, then move on. That's the most friendly, "adult" system available.

[Rucati]

It removes drama sure, but it also creates a lot of waste in items going to people who already have them, who it is a tiny upgrade for, or is just horribly itemized.

It's really no different than when you kill bosses and they drop loot nobody needs. Personal is better in almost every situation.

That being said, my guild used to just /roll and then whoever wanted it most usually got it because we aren't 10 year old kids that care about loot so we just give it to whoever it helps the most.

[Sonnillon]

We used Personal Loot in the beginning, but now we're running with Master Loot. We run with don't be a dick while you need an item and 99.9% it works great, where people don't really mind giving their loot to someone who actually needs it, even if they win an item. When we have people along who we don't know then we run with Personal loot to avoid any QQ, but even then some PUGs as for Master Loot .

[Deleted]

Uhh, no. In that super weird and fucked up situation, it's up to the guild leader to decide. All he has to do is appoint 3 "random" people who he knows will make the choice he wants.

Sounds like a very round-about way to make sure the GM's friends get gear, which is what most loot councils boil down to.



If the atmosphere is friendly and adult, why not just roll on gear? What possible downside could you imagine to justify this ridiculous suggestion?

/roll and pass out loot, then move on. That's the most friendly, "adult" system available.

It would be ridiculously obvious if the leader picked people for LC which made decisions he wanted. I've been picked several times myself, I have no idea who he wants to get the gear. Our guild leader wants the raid to succeed and progress and he realizes nothing good comes from bullshit drama. Some guild leaders might want to put gear on specific players, but honestly, I have no idea why people are still part of those guilds.

The reason why LC is superior to standard rolling is because rolling just lets luck decide who gets the item, which is BS since it doesn't reward players. If I attend every raid for weeks and a BiS item is dropped, it would be extremely aggrevating to have a dude who shows up far less often get the item. Especially if he already has a better item in the slot. Because of the LC, I know I want to be there on time when every raid starts. Because of the LC, I am comfortable passing an item to a guildie who I know needs it more since I will have that as a benefit next time I want something.

If you have a shitty GM, obviously don't let him appoint players in a loot council, but more than that, leave the guild and join one which doesn't have a shitty GM.

[Pur1tas]

So I think to optimize the Loot system you are using it is important to know the class knowledge of the loot master(s). If people know about 1-2 classes it is mostly not worth going for any other system than MS>OS as people distributing the loot might just not have the objective knowledge on how the loot is contributing to the raid the best.

If you have 1-5 people (depending on your raid size and their knowledge about the game, different classes and roles) I strongly suggest a Loot council. This will give the Loot Masters to optimize DPS, HPS and DMG Taken as fast as possible, wasting as few items as possible. This might feel unfair to weaker players though as I realize from our experience during Highmaul progression (if you want to call it that) and it is important to also keep the moral up. Loot Council is a very effective method of distributing loot, while it might not always be the most fair one (can you say that ?).

The fairest way of distributing loot is probably a DKP based system like EPGP or similar. It needs to be setup well though including -dkp for fails etc. in order to not have everybody at the same amount of DKP all the time. It is also important to set fair and reasonable prices for Items like trinkets and weapons (and Set pieces for BRF) in comparisson to off set pieces etc.

So it completely depends on what you want to achieve with a change of your loot system and on how well your possible Loot Master(s) know other classes and roles.

For us we have a 3 man Loot council using RCLootcouncil. We consist of a Tank, a Range DPS and me as a healer. We all know our class pretty well and have good knowledge of our roles. Our Tank knows about meeles and Tanks, Our Range DPS knows abour Range DPS and some Meeles and I know at least something about Range DPS and ofc Healers

I don't know your guilds mentality so I tried to objectively show you what options exist and might be viable, fair and beneficial to the raid.

Last but not least I got a ranking for you, of how it looks in my opinion

Fairness: DKP ---> MS>OS ---> Loot Council
Efficency: Loot Council ----> MS>OS ---> DKP

The fairness part is ofc looked at from a Player that is not in the lootcouncil point of view.

[Deleted]

Alot has changed since I was raiding in a serious guild. Excuse my ignorance but what happen to DKP?